Cheap fingerstyle guitar (yes, really)

Tannin

Cheers @JRgtar - yes. They are a very interesting looking unit. Too long to fit in my luggage, unfortunately. (I am constrained by my photographic equipment. A single good birding lens weighs 4.5kg and and is half a metre long - by the time I pack it safely, that's my hand luggage allowance gone already.)  Plus there isn't one here in town (a Martin Backpacker, I mean) and I won't have the opportunity to do any shopping in Melbourne before I leave. One I get off the aeroplane, spoace is a non-issue, so a cheap fuil-size guitar will be fine.

I will have a look at the Martin Backpacker when I get around to shopping for a permanent travel guitar one of these days. (Sri Lanka is an exception. I do all my other travel by road. I can fit a full-size guitar into my vehicle but it it does make things a bit tight if I'm away for any length of time, so a smaller one is worth considering. No hurry for any of that though. 

Tannin

Channeling my inner @Emp_Fab .....

I have previously considered buying a nylon string guitar. (A proper one I mean, not a cheapie.) It's still something I'd like to try. Trouble is, I don't have any friends who own one I can borrow, so I really need to buy one to see how I adapt to playing nylon, and buying one is awkward because the local shops, which are pretty good on the steel string front, don't carry anything I'd want to buy and I won't go and play stuff I know I'm not going to buy.

So I vacillate between buying a cheapie to try out, saying "hell no!" and buying something decent, and just putting the whole idea into the too hard basket. 

Anyway, it occurs to me that, seeing as I'm going to buy a cheap throwaway guitar anyway, why not try a nylon and kill two birds with the same stone? I have made arrangements with my guide to call into a music shop in Negombo and I'll try a few different guitars, buy whichever one I like - very possibly a nylon strung one. (But I will decide between steel and nylon on the spot.) If you are curious, this is the shop - https://miyasiya-music-parlour.business.site/ It's on our way to the Chillaw Wetlands

QUESTIONS:

(1) I'm going to play whatever I buy and I can make my own judgements about price, tone and playability, no worries there. But is there anything I should know about nylon string guitars that (as a 50-year steel-string guy) I won't think to look out for? Longevity isn't a big deal, obviously.  
 
(2) What about strings? I'll take a fresh set of steel strings with me (Sunbeams should work on anything), but what is a sensible one-size-fits-all nylon string? The shop there will have a limited range, but doubtless something.

drofluf

String wise I’d try these I’d suggest D’Addario Pro Arté EJ 45, they’re probably the equivalent of EJ16s. 

They also do a “Folk Nylon” version that has ball ends that may save the hassle of learning to tie nylon strings which can be a hassle until you get the knack. 

You’ll have a more local supplier but these are the strings

https://www.stringsdirect.co.uk/strings-c1/string-sets-c865/classical-guitar-c288/daddario-ej45-pro-arte-classical-normal-tension-guitar-strings-p2286?currency=GBP&gclid=CjwKCAjwqJSaBhBUEiwAg5W9p2lXpSrMQXe8jISeJAWVdYCS-9vznVa1RPT0j46HPoc-O06vNjO1YRoCX0EQAvD_BwE#fo_c=1949&fo_k=b0c6c94036f262e2e8679801bb1a095d&fo_s=gplauk&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_term=

Cig35

Nylon string guitars:

1) Action is quite a bit higher than on steel-strings so don't be surprised about that. Yamaha recommends 4 mm on the 6th string at 12th fret but it may well be a bit higher and that is not a problem. Nylon string guitars have no truss rod so the relief is what it is and cannot be adjusted, so check that it is OK when looking at the guitar.

2) Agree on D'addario EJ45s as good one-size-fits-all strings. When changing strings, remember to check how the strings are tied to the bridge before removing the old ones so you know how to do it with the new ones. It's not difficult. And when changing string it will take quite some time before the new strings stay in tune so be prepared to tune the guitar quite often for a period of time.

Shadow

Try a crossover guitar? Typically 48mm nut rather than 50 plus for a traditional classical, radiused fretboard and usually a truss rod.

drofluf

Cig35 said:

And when changing string it will take quite some time before the new strings stay in tune so be prepared to tune the guitar quite often for a period of time. 

Just to add to that. When the strings stay in tune that’s the sign that it’s time to fit a fresh set

Tannin

Cheers and thanks to all. Advice on board. Tuesday morning - which for once will actually be Tuesday morning for you lot and me too 'coz I'll be in (almost) the same time zone - I'll pick out my three-week temporary love. Steel string or nylon? I'll decide that on the spot depending on which one seems like fun to play for a few weeks. 

I've been away from home for just over a week now (Mrs Tannin and I had a one-week holiday in northern Tasmania, she's just got home and I'm going on to SL) and it is quite odd being without a guitar. Several times a day I go to reach for one and then remember that I don't have one here. Weird!

DrHungry

This anecdote is of no help to you at all, but I remember travelling to Sydney for 3 months, must have been about 15 years ago. After roughly a fortnight my guitar withdrawal got so acute that I visited a music shop in the CBD and bought the cheapest thing they stocked that could be described as a guitar - a $60 Aston nylon string.

I took it to the botanic gardens and spent one of my happiest music related experiences sat on the grass tunelessly bashing out any and every song I could remember while the sun set behind the harbour bridge. Acquiring it significantly increased my enjoyment of those few months and I even got to take it home, as back in the day they let me take it into the cabin on the plane as extra hand baggage free of charge.

One afternoon when we were travelling somewhere in Queensland, my mates and I painted it with "Aboriginal" motifs which at the time we thought was awesome. It's turned into a bulky, horrible sounding and playing piece of questionable cultural appropriation that is one of my most treasured memories and can never be got rid of!

Here's the view from that happy afternoon in the botanic gardens!

Tannin

I arrived in Sri Lanka last night around midnight and found myself in the guitar shop at 9:30 this morning. I played a couple, the obvious candidate being  a Yamaha F310. It was basically awful. It was straight enough and the action was fine, it just sounded like crap warmed up. How much of that was due to the guitar and how much the very tired strings I'm not sure. The chap in the shop wanted me to play various others but every guitar was out of tune and I mean way out. I didn't fancy spending an hour tuning every guitar in the place just so I could try them.

So, rather against his notions, I just walked around pinging strings without picking anything up. Did that to maybe 20 guitars. A couple stood out as obviously superior. One was a fake Gibson jumbo (which would have been a bit of a giggle), the other another Yamaha. 

I tuned this second Yamaha properly, played it, thought "that'll do". In the end I didn't even look at the nylon stringers, I felt as though finding an ordinary steel-string that was nice to play was challenging enough. 

But then - "Oh wait!" I thought - "I bet I've picked out the only expensive guitar in the shop - it's miles better than most of the rest of the stuff". One thing I had noticed straight away was that it had a more prominent grain on the top, almost like Red Spruce. Better ask the price!

However it turned out to be another F310, either damaged or a factory second, it has 2 or 3 chips in the soundboard, neatly filled with clear poly. For that reason, it was marked down and sitting with the second-hand stock. But it sounded miles better than most of the others, including the undamaged F310.

I paid Rs42500 - $181 or  £101 plus Rs5900 (£14) for a soft case.  Happy with that.

Tannin

On trying it out properly, the big problem was the very sticky strings. It was really difficult to play. Yes, I could put a set of Sunbeams on it, but what about lubrication? I didn't bring any Fast-fret but isn't that stuff mostly mineral oil? So I tried a tiny, tiny bit of Vaseline. Worked like a charm! Vastly nicer to play, and I might just keep the factory strings for the next couple of weeks.

The Yamaha F310 is a student dreadnought. The top is solid spruce, the back and sides are laminated who-knows-what, probably nato, and the fretboard is claimed to be rosewood, which I doubt. But it plays in tune or close enough, the feel is just fine bar the 43mm nut which is very small in my hands, and it sounds decent. Better than decent actually. Put it this way, suppose I was booked to play a gig and at the last moment couldn't use one of my nice guitars. Could I get by on this one at a pinch? Sure I could - though I'd make a lot of mistakes on that too-narrow neck.

It's actually slightly undersize in all dimensions. The body is smallish for a dread and slightly slimmer (these changes make it very comfortable to  play) and it has a Gibson-like 634mm scale length, which (for once!) I'm OK with.

In the end, for not much money I have a perfectly playable  guitar and have learned new respect for Yamaha - producing something this playable for bugger-all money  is a real achievement. I'm a bit sorry I'm not going to take it home.

Mellish

@Tannin ; that looks OK for £101, solid top at least.

I assume the nut, saddle and bridge pins are plastic?

 

Dave_Mc

Nice, that sounds like a score for what you want! I got a Yamaha FG720MS (I think... they're nearly as bad at naming things as Ibanez!) for my first acoustic, and it's pretty nice full stop (solid sitka top, laminate nato back and sides). For what I paid (admittedly several years ago before prices went crazy, and also I got it in a January sale at a pretty attractive price even for then) it's silly nice. If yours is anything like it, it's probably perfect for what you want. I agree with you, Yamaha's making incredibly decent instruments for very little money deserves credit.

Tannin

@Mellish, yes, plastic giblets. Cheers @Dave_Mc One of the reasons I was keener on Yamaha than other brands in this price range is that the company seems to make a genuine effort to use responsibly sourced timbers. 

One thing I am enjoying, in a strange sort of way, is the narrow nut. Now I hate narrow nuts. A 12-sring player for many, many years,I'm most comfortable in the 46-48mm range. All of my best guitars are 44mm which is too small for me and although I have more-or-less got used to that, I still notice and appreciate the extra room on my Guild (45mm) and make fewer mistakes. 

If I had a 43mm guitar at home I'd probably not play it much - but this one is my only choice for the next few weeks so it will get played. And my fingers are adjusting to it, at least a bit. (But to tell the truth, I seem to be playing up the neck more than I usually do. No harm in that either.)  So I reckon that when I get home, those little-bit-too-tight nuts on my Matons and Cole Clarks will feel luxuriously roomy.

thermionic

Take up the ukulele.

bertie

thermionic said:

Take up the ukulele.

bertie

thermionic said:

Take up the ukulele.

.

Dave_Mc

Tannin said:

@Mellish, yes, plastic giblets. Cheers @Dave_Mc One of the reasons I was keener on Yamaha than other brands in this price range is that the company seems to make a genuine effort to use responsibly sourced timbers. 

One thing I am enjoying, in a strange sort of way, is the narrow nut. Now I hate narrow nuts. A 12-sring player for many, many years,I'm most comfortable in the 46-48mm range. All of my best guitars are 44mm which is too small for me and although I have more-or-less got used to that, I still notice and appreciate the extra room on my Guild (45mm) and make fewer mistakes. 

If I had a 43mm guitar at home I'd probably not play it much - but this one is my only choice for the next few weeks so it will get played. And my fingers are adjusting to it, at least a bit. (But to tell the truth, I seem to be playing up the neck more than I usually do. No harm in that either.)  So I reckon that when I get home, those little-bit-too-tight nuts on my Matons and Cole Clarks will feel luxuriously roomy.

Yeah I think my Yamaha is 43mm. I used to think I liked wide nuts- but that's on electric. I definitely prefer 43mm on electric (though I can play on narrower if I have to), but my Dowina is 45mm, and I was thinking I'd like the extra room, but if anything it's slightly too wide! It's not a massive problem (I prefer too much room to not enough), but I do have to concentrate not to hit the wrong string, especially if I've been playing the electrics more.

(Ironically, a bit like you, I actually tried to get more used to narrower electric nuts, since only liking 43mm like I did when I started playing limits the guitars you can enjoy and buy, and I was actually pretty successful at doing that... but it's working against me now with acoustics!)

LOL @bertie ;;

Tannin

Well, it ended up being a nice guitar and a successful experiment. I don't think I'll do it again as I didn't get all that much time to play it, just a short while most days, plus a couple of extended sessions on days where outdoor activities were curtailed by afternoon downpours as the monsoon season started to bite.

Before I left, I gave it to a young lad of about 9 or so, the son of my friend's sister. As chance would have it, he had begun his first guitar lessons just a few weeks previously so with any luck it will be a useful instrument for him. It's a bit big for his nine-year-old fingers and a bit of a stretch for his small frame, but he will grow into it. 

The guitar could use a set-up. There is a bit too much neck relief and the saddle could use a slight shave, no more than a millimetre. It is perfectly playable as-is but those little tweaks would make it excellent. I looked up a Colombo-based luthier (yes, luthier, not just a tech in case anyone remembers that thread )  and made arrangements for my friend to take it to him. Most labour-based services are very cheap in Sri Lanka, I'd be surprised if it cost more than Rs5000 (about ten quid) for the set-up.



The top wood is very interesting, it is such a wide grain that it looks like Red Spruce . It won't be, of course, Red Spruce is far too expensive for a guitar in this segment and in any case it doesn't sound anything like adi. 







On the last picture you can see one of the flaws on the top (bottom edge near the centre). 

What about the tone? How does it compare with my usual all-solid fancy timber premium-grade instruments? 

Pretty well, actually. The biggest difference is the bass. The little Yamaha has plenty of bass - quite remarkable really - but it has a one-dimensional thud to it which becomes boring after a while, a bit lifeless. (Not unlike a Martin dread, though the Martin thud is richer and easier on the ear.) The top end and mids are better, streets in front of the various other cheap guitars I sampled in the shop. Obviously they don't match the balance or subtlety of the instruments I have at home, but considering that they range between 10 and 30 times the price, the difference is small. 

It would be interesting to compare the little Yamaha to them side-by-side, in the same environment - either the Yamaha at home in the (more-or-less) constant temperature, 50% humidity living room, or (a scary thought!) a couple of my beauties in 30 degrees and constant 99% humidity. How long would they last in that climate? My guess is that the plywood body of the Yamaha would stand up for longer without trouble.

So, a good experiment and a nice guitar. I particularly liked the slightly-smaller-than-usual dreadnought body. It was very comfortable to hold. But coming home to my little collection of fine instruments with full-length scales and not-so-bloody-squeezy 44mm and 45mm nuts was a joy.