I've been trying to learn some fast picking very methodically...here's how it's going

digitalkettle

Vibetronic said:

update - been hacking away at it for days and had a breakthrough. I've adjusted my pick angle minutely so the upstroke is a bit more aggressive, and it makes a world of difference. I'm now playing runs moderately quickly using strict alternate picking. It's a bit of a mix of what I've been doing in lessons and my own way of playing (my own way being my right-hand still slightly anchored on the body - in lessons I'm not doing this - the right hand is basically a fist, and I find this SO unnatural!!)

I can totally relate to this: right-hand is like a hollow fist? At speed, I still have to have fingers looser and brushing the guitar (slightly anchored).

I try to incorporate downward and upward slant (I think that's old CtC terminology now). Before all this, I used to hold the pick showing as little as possible with my index finger only slightly bent. I probably show 5mm more pick these days and the index had to curl significantly more to avoid fouling the strings...took some getting used to!

roberty

Great stuff @Vibetronic - transitioning to a closed grip nearly ruined me. Sounds like you'll get where you want to be before long

One thing I've been trying to do is play powerchords with alternating strokes, making the upstrokes as powerful and as the downstrokes so there is equal stress on both directions. I think this involves the angle shift of the pick you mentioned, the same principle but exaggerated over two or three strings. This is with the hand hovering over the strings, not palm muted

Vibetronic

@digitalkettle  - closed fist, not hollow; I can do that a bit now, but I’m still anchoring with an open hand whilst I cement the pick angle and movement into muscle memory. I’ll then work on the closed fist as it frees up movement massively. It’s taken me over a year to ‘get it’ - it just suddenly clicked, all through realising the importance of the upstroke. Admittedly I had been practicing/trying a bit more recently. It’s the biggest breakthrough I’ve had in decades though!!

allen

Decided to record myself this morning. 

A bit disappointed with myself as last night the whole piece was flowing fairly smoothly at 100bpm, but this morning 80 was comfortable and 96/100bpm was not.

Oh well.

Barney

allen said:

Decided to record myself this morning. 

A bit disappointed with myself as last night the whole piece was flowing fairly smoothly at 100bpm, but this morning 80 was comfortable and 96/100bpm was not.

Oh well.

I don't know iff you have tried this but I found it really helpful ....a lot of the time it's a weak upstroke we have .....it's easy enough to check by playing a scale all downstrokes ...then try playing it all upstrokes at same tempo ..it doesn't need to be fast to isolate any problems.....often it's the upstroke that is weak and by doing that will see iff it is .....iff it is try working on all upstrokes in your practice until they are as easy and fluid as down . ....iff it's the other way on do the opposite 

Vibetronic

Barney said:

allen said:

Decided to record myself this morning. 

A bit disappointed with myself as last night the whole piece was flowing fairly smoothly at 100bpm, but this morning 80 was comfortable and 96/100bpm was not.

Oh well.

I don't know iff you have tried this but I found it really helpful ....a lot of the time it's a weak upstroke we have .....it's easy enough to check by playing a scale all downstrokes ...then try playing it all upstrokes at same tempo ..it doesn't need to be fast to isolate any problems.....often it's the upstroke that is weak and by doing that will see iff it is .....iff it is try working on all upstrokes in your practice until they are as easy and fluid as down . ....iff it's the other way on do the opposite 

Exactly what @Barney said @allen  - sounds like you're making good progress though. I did precisely this - isolated my upstroke, and the whole thing clicked. The whole process has taken a year but it's worth all the plugging away you're doing.From the look of the video you posted, your thumb (picking hand) is also too close/flat to the strings, so the pick will never 'escape' properly and that's where you're getting that snagging. I actually photographed my hand so I didn't forget the position; can post if it helps. Also try loosening up your right arm/wrist - whole thing should move as it is but it looks a little stiff. The action is kind of the relaxed feel that strumming chords should have but in a smaller area. I found this the hardest. Keep going, looks like you're doing a great job!

allen

Thanks for the feedback chaps.

I don't really feel any weakness in my upstroke although I will have a look at it to see if it will help.

Thumb too close - yes, that happens to me. I haven't perfected the 'ideal' way to hold my pick, and my fingers sweat so it moves about a bit between takes.

Arm too stiff - yes, totally agree. At very slow speeds I can get exactly that feel you describe of 'strumming' loosely through the lines, but at higher speeds I'm either a bit tense (due to concentrating) and/or am trying to keep control of it to maintain the speed. I have previously spent time learning fast SRV things and I can keep my arm looser for that.

roberty

@allen looks like a lot of movement is coming from your shoulder. I would try to isolate the movement to the wrist for exercises like this. I think it will help in the long run

digitalkettle

I think this passage is devilishly tricky: the first couple of bars is a 'brute force' alternate picking thing (which you've switched out for some economy...I think that's a wrong turn in this context). Then there are many position shifts with bits of legato along the B string until you get to the money shot. I'm wondering if you should start building up with something more 'uniform'?

Vibetronic

digitalkettle said:

I think this passage is devilishly tricky: the first couple of bars is a 'brute force' alternate picking thing (which you've switched out for some economy...I think that's a wrong turn in this context). Then there are many position shifts with bits of legato along the B string until you get to the money shot. I'm wondering if you should start building up with something more 'uniform'?

I was going to say roughly the same thing - the tab I have is different to where he played it, but either way it’s a tricky sequence to get started with. 

allen

roberty said:

@allen looks like a lot of movement is coming from your shoulder. I would try to isolate the movement to the wrist for exercises like this. I think it will help in the long run

I agree. My shoulder looks wrong. Have tried to loosen up my wrist on it this evening. 

roberty

Hope everyone is doing well

I saw this exercise today and thought of this thread. The exercise can be modified to focus on inside picking, outside picking, downward pick slanting, upward pick slanting, or economy picking. It can be transposed onto any pair of strings

My preference is for downward pick slanting so I will focus on the others

Really impressed at how easy it is to isolate the various movements with this pattern

CoffeeAndTV

Many, many moons ago I learned by tracing Paul Gilbert’s picking arm, wrist and hand angle from Intense Rock on paper and copied the same in a mirror.

I’m the past year or two I’ve revisited my picking and used Troy Grady’s courses which were very helpful and now I don’t really know how I picked originally.  

I think I’m now picking in a hybrid Gilbert and Grady style.  One area that is giving me problems is bending my picking thumb when changing strings.  I’ve seen Gilbert do when he changes strings.  I’m slightly conscious that I’m losing some
speed/efficiency due to the thumb moving. 

Thing is, none of this happened when I was just playing and not thinking about it.  

roberty

I've been working on economy picking. Making some okay progress but I expect it will take a while yet

stratman3142

Not that I've got a hope in hell of playing it up to speed, but I've been trying to work out the left hand fingering for the fast run in 'Out In The Fields', by slowing down the video in Yoube (below) from 2:46.

This is what I've got so far. When he gets onto the 2nd string, there appears to be a position shift on the beat, which might be a slide-up of his 4th finger. But I know he would often use his 3rd finger instead of his pinkie. It's difficult from the camera angle.

Click on the image of the tab to get a clearer view. 

https://i.imgur.com/aY13F5D.png

roberty

@stratman3142 that's good going! For the position change it looks like he's doubling up on the C note on the G string, playing it first with his 3rd finger and then again with his 1st

There's a few hammered on triplets in the top part in the second half too

Listening at 0.25x speed on YouTube

digitalkettle

 @stratman3142 I was obsessing over the album version for far too long and came up with this:

Like you, I thought that most of his position shifting was performed along the B string...gets a lot more legato...and he appears to slide right through fret 13 as if he's trying to keep up with himself

(see link in signature for full transcription)

roberty

Gosh they don't make music videos like they used to do they

roberty

@digitalkettle @stratman3142 what transcription software are you using and is there a free version? I think I've spotted something 

stratman3142

roberty said:

@digitalkettle @stratman3142 what transcription software are you using and is there a free version? I think I've spotted something 

I'm using Guitar Pro 8, but I don't think there's a free version. I suppose you might be able to do it with Musescore, which I also use. But I find Guitar Pro best for guitar specific stuff and Musescore best for general purpose band charts.