Is our tone in our fingers?

Roland

mrkb said:

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers …

My fingers do touch the vibrating section of the strings, with left and right hand damping. Besides damping to stop a note I frequently use partial damping to control the amount of treble frequencies. If I’m too loud, and starting to drown out the singer, I’ll use partial damping, rather than change dynamics by picking more gently, until I have time to nudge the volume knob. Like @stickyfiddle have my amp setting treble high because I can manage the sound with the guitar’s tone knob and my fingers.

When using a plectrum I often use the side of my thumb to modify the way the string vibrates, although I normally don’t use enough gain for stealing pinched harmonics.

Even when my fingers aren’t contacting the string directly they’re affecting the note. Bending and vibrato are obvious. There’s also the way I hold the plectrum. Sometimes pulling it into my hand so that only the tip strikes the string, sometimes pushing it outwards for looser strumming. Then there’s slanting for different attack. Something which a lot of guitarists do, but often don’t notice, is how they use micro bends to sweeten notes in a chord. Squeezing a minor third slightly sharp is the prime example.

Now I’m not going to dispute that equipment has a big effect on sound, but put any two of us in the same room with the same equipment, and get us playing the song, and we will sound different, even without changing any settings.

Teetonetal

Lestratcaster said:

Yes 100%. 

I'm a tutor and always get that comment from learners when I pick up their guitar "that it sounds so good when you play it".

It ought to. You are a professional. If it didn't, then you are in the wrong job.

For me, there is a technical level of competence and experience that any professional musician should reach, that should enable them to sound good on any old piece of junk that might get flung their way.

I always feel in these debates that "tone" basically means, recognisable technique and style, that can shine through despite gear choice. Sometimes, that technique element is also on who to use the gear to get the sound you require (obvious example the edge)

merlin

"Tone" is also affected by timing. If you play behind the beat then you sound "flat" tonally and if you play ahead then you sound "sharp". 

Depending on your relationship to the pulse, your brain (and other's brains) alter the "tone". 

It's like sharp in pitch sounds brighter and flat sounds darker. So "tone" is about great subtleties of timing and pitch as well as about gear. Maybe not about fingers but about timing and pitching. 

Lestratcaster

Teetonetal said:

Lestratcaster said:

Yes 100%. 

I'm a tutor and always get that comment from learners when I pick up their guitar "that it sounds so good when you play it".

It ought to. You are a professional. If it didn't, then you are in the wrong job.

For me, there is a technical level of competence and experience that any professional musician should reach, that should enable them to sound good on any old piece of junk that might get flung their way.

I always feel in these debates that "tone" basically means, recognisable technique and style, that can shine through despite gear choice. Sometimes, that technique element is also on who to use the gear to get the sound you require (obvious example the edge)

I try lol.

Maybe I used the wrong phrase. They say it sounds "different" to when they play it may be a better saying. Even when just ringing out an open E chord. Heavy handed strumming is another one that I notice.

sev112

mrkb said:

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers.

it’s from three things-
1 the equipment - a cranked metal amp won’t allow a clean sound
2 how the player sets up the equipment - Ive noticed I set different amps up to sound similar ie to my sound
3 how the player plays the notes - how hard the string is hit, etc

Do an experiment 
hold the D or G string down with absolute tip of your finger, play a note
now hold the string down as a barre across all 6 strings, play the same note

Vastly different tone even though there is fret in both cases 

LastMantra

Roland said:

mrkb said:

As my fingers don’t touch the vibrating string (one end is on a metal fret, the string is excited by a plectrum) then it’s not the fingers …

My fingers do touch the vibrating section of the strings, with left and right hand damping. Besides damping to stop a note I frequently use partial damping to control the amount of treble frequencies. If I’m too loud, and starting to drown out the singer, I’ll use partial damping, rather than change dynamics by picking more gently, until I have time to nudge the volume knob. Like @stickyfiddle have my amp setting treble high because I can manage the sound with the guitar’s tone knob and my fingers.

When using a plectrum I often use the side of my thumb to modify the way the string vibrates, although I normally don’t use enough gain for stealing pinched harmonics.

Even when my fingers aren’t contacting the string directly they’re affecting the note. Bending and vibrato are obvious. There’s also the way I hold the plectrum. Sometimes pulling it into my hand so that only the tip strikes the string, sometimes pushing it outwards for looser strumming. Then there’s slanting for different attack. Something which a lot of guitarists do, but often don’t notice, is how they use micro bends to sweeten notes in a chord. Squeezing a minor third slightly sharp is the prime example.

Now I’m not going to dispute that equipment has a big effect on sound, but put any two of us in the same room with the same equipment, and get us playing the song, and we will sound different, even without changing any settings.

Could you not also say that even though the two would play differently you'd technically be using the same guitar tone? As in amp/guitar settings.

Like a "tone" control on a radio effects the tone of the radio no matter what is playing. 

LastMantra

I'd say tone is a result of the fingers and the equipment. The over all sound that is produced by said musician on said equipment. 

A good musician might be able to make any old equipment sound good but that's not to say they wouldn't sound slightly different on different equipment. Other wise what's the point in having different equipment?

Barney

Iff tone is in the fingers why do we all go mad for new guitars ...FX pedals ...amps .. ??

sev112

Tone is humidity 

stickyfiddle

Barney said:

Iff tone is in the fingers why do we all go mad for new guitars ...FX pedals ...amps .. ??

Because those things are fun? And certainly much easier to go get gear than to focus on the “finger stuff”

I mean.. you definitely need the right gear to get in the ballpark - you’re unlikely to play Sultans of Swing on a Les Paul and EMGs into a screaming Dual Rec and have it sound authentic. 

But once you have a setup that will roughly get you there, it’s far more important to focus on style, timing, phrasing and aggression (sounds like robot wars!). 

It’s this stuff why most folks who play Comfortably Numb sound somewhere between terrible and middling. It’s not that the gear is desperately critical and if they only had those final few molecules correct inside their diodes they’d be able to get it perfect.

I really like nice gear and have been lucky enough to have some really good kit. But it’s how I use it that makes me sound good

God knows the other guitarist in band has a Silver Sky and Quad Cortex and still sounds like ass…

roberty

The right gear helps bring out the right qualities of your playing. But your playing has to be right for this to happen

GavRichList

No, you’re thinking of *bone. It’s bone that is in your fingers. 

Roland

LastMantra said:

Roland said:

Now I’m not going to dispute that equipment has a big effect on sound, but put any two of us in the same room with the same equipment, and get us playing the song, and we will sound different, even without changing any settings.

Could you not also say that even though the two would play differently you'd technically be using the same guitar tone? As in amp/guitar settings.

Like a "tone" control on a radio effects the tone of the radio no matter what is playing. 

Tone controls on guitars and amps affect the static EQ. With a guitar’s control you can roll off treble frequencies, limiting the upper frequencies which you can produce. What I’m talking about is changing frequencies dynamically as you play. Partial muting can take out upper frequencies for one note, or part of a note. Pinch harmonics take out selected lower frequencies. Hammers, pull-offs, and slides, and how you play them, each have an impact on which frequencies are heard. 

Barney

stickyfiddle said:

Barney said:

Iff tone is in the fingers why do we all go mad for new guitars ...FX pedals ...amps .. ??

Because those things are fun? And certainly much easier to go get gear than to focus on the “finger stuff”

I mean.. you definitely need the right gear to get in the ballpark - you’re unlikely to play Sultans of Swing on a Les Paul and EMGs into a screaming Dual Rec and have it sound authentic. 

But once you have a setup that will roughly get you there, it’s far more important to focus on style, timing, phrasing and aggression (sounds like robot wars!). 

It’s this stuff why most folks who play Comfortably Numb sound somewhere between terrible and middling. It’s not that the gear is desperately critical and if they only had those final few molecules correct inside their diodes they’d be able to get it perfect.

I really like nice gear and have been lucky enough to have some really good kit. But it’s how I use it that makes me sound good

God knows the other guitarist in band has a Silver Sky and Quad Cortex and still sounds like ass…

Yeah I agree ...but the comfortably numb solo for example is more about phrasing and dynamics the way he bends the string...iff any one of us could get on Dave Gilmour rig and just play one note ..same pick same place  I reckon the tone would be very similar ....after that it comes to phrasing ...dynamics ect .....that's really why I struggle with the tone analogy...
you can hear good guitarists playing through very average gear and still sound similar but the tone will be different but all that will be lost because the guitarists phrasing and way of playing will be that good 

LastMantra

Roland said:

LastMantra said:

Roland said:

Now I’m not going to dispute that equipment has a big effect on sound, but put any two of us in the same room with the same equipment, and get us playing the song, and we will sound different, even without changing any settings.

Could you not also say that even though the two would play differently you'd technically be using the same guitar tone? As in amp/guitar settings.

Like a "tone" control on a radio effects the tone of the radio no matter what is playing. 

Tone controls on guitars and amps affect the static EQ. With a guitar’s control you can roll off treble frequencies, limiting the upper frequencies which you can produce. What I’m talking about is changing frequencies dynamically as you play. Partial muting can take out upper frequencies for one note, or part of a note. Pinch harmonics take out selected lower frequencies. Hammers, pull-offs, and slides, and how you play them, each have an impact on which frequencies are heard. 

I just think you could argue that that is technique, you could also strum an open e chord and not move your hand at all and still say ooh that amp produces a nice tone, as well as saying a player has nice tone. It is a mixture of technique and eq, guitar/pickups, amp, speaker, cab etc. that is the complete "tone".

Everything, basically. 

Sporky

"Tone" gets redefined in each and every post that uses the word. 

LastMantra

Sporky said:

"Tone" gets redefined in each and every post that uses the word. 

I think it's any sound really, and you can say what produces it has/produces ___ tone.
If a sound has a characteristic that is pleasing to your ear it has a nice tone?

How a certain speaker moves air and how a guitar player moves their fingers appear to be very different things, but they both have an impact on the end result. 

Roland

LastMantra said:

I just think you could argue that that is technique, …. they both have an impact on the end result

Yes. I agree. The way you move your fingers is part of your playing technique. Both technology and technique are part of producing the sound.

Roland

Sporky said:

"Tone" gets redefined in each and every post that uses the word. 

Hopefully we are working towards a definition of the word.

stufisher

Funky Cold Medina