What is a "British" guitar? (upcoming NGD)

PCT57

Congratulations on the interesting order. I'll be looking forward to seeing it in the Brook news.

stufisher

Great call @Timcito ; ... I'm also a fan of Moon guitars ... have been ever since I first saw Dougie MacLean live c.20 years ago.

Notwithstanding, well done @Tannin ; ... I'm sure you'll have many years of enjoyment from your bespoke design.

One day I might just flog a few guitars and order a custom-made guitar ... but not yet.

Timcito

Tannin said:

Job's done.

I'm not much of a hand at typing on my ancient little laptop but briefly, I've ordered a Lyn.

Lyn (roughly 00 size)
European Spruce top (I picked one with a lovely hint of ripple in it)
3-piece back, walnut and Yew in the centre, walnut sides.
5-piece laminated walnut, yew and Sycamore neck (or European Maple if they prefer)
Bog Oak fretboard, bridge & headstock veneer
Gotoh tuners
Box briidge pins
45.5mm nut
650mm scale
12.5 fret neck-body join

Simon & Andy were a bit set back by the notion of a join not on an exact fret but came around to seeing the logic of it. They thought it would look as though they'd made a mistake, but I knew what I wanted.

A real pleasure to deal with them.

That sounds like a beautiful guitar!

Benm39

Congratulations @Tannin , that's going to be a really special instrument. I too look forward to seeing it featured in Brook newsletters. Keep us posted!

thomasross20

@Tannin the Lyn is the exact model I would have been getting if I pulled the trigger. Great spec.

Tannin

Cheers all. I see that Pete (my native guide, chauffeur, and friend of many years standing) and I are in the Brook newsletter already. No guitar yet, just our smiling faces (which - for some reason I don't quite understand - look 40 years older than they did 40 years ago).

The yew in the neck was an interesting big. As mentioned a page or two earlier I wanted some yew to go with the bog oak fretboard. When I mentioned yew for the neck Simon immediately said "yes" but that it would need to be laminated with something. I'm not entirely sure why that is (I didn't want to waste their entire day with a zillion different questions) but one factor is that it would be difficult to find a bit that was long and thick and straight enough and I also got the impression that it wasn't structurally suitable on its own. 

Anyway, laminated with walnut (which they do like as a neck timber) it will be fine, and with the light-coloured pinstripes of pale timber separating the darker yew and walnut laminations, it will look great. (I left it up to them whether to use Sycamore or European Maple for the pinstripes, depending on what bits they have handy at the time.) It will be my one and only laminated neck, by the way.

Given the finalised spec for the neck, it was an obvious step to echo it with the back and side materials - walnut, with yew up the centre, and maple or Sycamore trim.

It wound up being quite a long way away from the guitar(s) I had in mind in the first place, but that's fine. I reckon it will be a beauty.

guitarjack66

Why do guitarists tend to cringe at the word 'laminate' when so many good guitars have been laminated in the past? Is it because it is effectively a 'cheaper' option?

Tannin

We need to distinguish here between a laminated neck and a laminated body. Completely different things. 

A laminated neck is generally regarded as a high-end feature. It costs more to manufacture, and is (in theory) more stable. And of course it looks great. There is no effect worth mentioning on the sound quality. At its simplest, you take one bit of timber and split it up the middle. Then you reverse one of the pieces and glue them back together. Because the two parts are reversed with respect to one another, and tendency to bow (say) to the left from one part is exactly opposed by the other part which (of course) wants to bow right. Result: a very stable neck.

(You do exactly the same thing for all sorts of woodworking tasks. I'm no luthier but I can build a house no worries, and it is a standard technique to laminate key corner studs. Suppose you are making a house frame out of 4 x 2 pine studs. Pine tends to be crappy stuff at the best of times, prone to warping, twisting and bowing, but it's good enough for a house frame. Now you get to a corner or a door post. It obviously needs to be stronger than the 4 x 2 wall studs. Do you use heavier timber instead? Say an 8 x 6? No! Not only is that expensive, it is also prone to warping and twisting unless it's a very good bit of timber. Much better - and standard practice for any builder - is to use three bits of 4 x 2, nailed together in such a way that the warps and twists are opposed and want to even themselves out. Cheaper, plenty strong enough, and lasts forever without warping. This is effectively a laminate.)

So laminated necks are a high-end feature. Some builders never use anything else. On the other hand, it is perfectly possible to make a high-quality neck which won't warp or twist out of a single piece of timber just so long as you select a good, straight bit and season it properly. 

So in the end, it's just a matter of taste and the builder's preference. 

The best laminated necks (not necessarily the best lasting and certainly not the best sounding, just the best looking) use something like 5 pieces. My Brook is an example: it will be walnut on either side with yew running up the middle, and on either side of the yew a pair of thin maple or Sycamore strips like a pinstripe. Presumably that will add a bit to the cost, but probably not a great deal and it will look beautiful, especially as it will match the back. 

Tannin

A laminated body, on the other hand, is usually (but not always) a cheaper, generally inferior way to build a guitar. Certain very carefully considered and manufactured instruments excepted, a laminated back simply can't produce the same quality of sound you get from a good all-solid back. It starts out inferior and doesn't change much, where a solid back tends to get better with age.

Laminated backs, on the other hand, tend to produce a fairly OK sound so long as the top is half decent and are quite consistent. Think of them as being like tinned soup: they are never, ever going to earn a Michelin Star from anyone but at least they'll all be pretty much the same as each other and you (the guitar manufacturer) can churn out thousands and thousands of them without worrying too much about matching your construction to your timber. None of them (probably) will be truly awful, and none of them will be particularly good. Tinned soup.

Laminated sides are different. The sides have no real impact on the sound of the guitar, they are really just a way to hold the top and the back apart. You could make them out of anything. Quite a few high-end boutique makers (the people making guitars in the £8000 price bracket) use laminated sides because they are easier to bend, have no impact on the sound quality, and can be made as thick as you like, which helps add weight to the body. (Tops should pretty much always be light and backs mostly should be reasonably light (depending on the design)  but heavy sides are often a very good thing. Some builders add weights to sides (glued onto the inside) as part of the process of fine-tuning the tone of a fine instrument.)

thomasross20

Hmm I thought as sound banged around inside the chamber, it hit off the sides so the sides were still important. Good writings!

thomasross20

Have you considered the bracing position? I was listening to forward vs standard vs rear shifted bracing patterns and the forward shifted sounded better.

earwighoney

Tannin said:

A laminated body, on the other hand, is usually (but not always) a cheaper, generally inferior way to build a guitar. Certain very carefully considered and manufactured instruments excepted, a laminated back simply can't produce the same quality of sound you get from a good all-solid back. It starts out inferior and doesn't change much, where a solid back tends to get better with age.

Laminated backs, on the other hand, tend to produce a fairly OK sound so long as the top is half decent and are quite consistent. Think of them as being like tinned soup: they are never, ever going to earn a Michelin Star from anyone but at least they'll all be pretty much the same as each other and you (the guitar manufacturer) can churn out thousands and thousands of them without worrying too much about matching your construction to your timber. None of them (probably) will be truly awful, and none of them will be particularly good. Tinned soup.

Laminated sides are different. The sides have no real impact on the sound of the guitar, they are really just a way to hold the top and the back apart. You could make them out of anything. Quite a few high-end boutique makers (the people making guitars in the £8000 price bracket) use laminated sides because they are easier to bend, have no impact on the sound quality, and can be made as thick as you like, which helps add weight to the body. (Tops should pretty much always be light and backs mostly should be reasonably light (depending on the design)  but heavy sides are often a very good thing. Some builders add weights to sides (glued onto the inside) as part of the process of fine-tuning the tone of a fine instrument.)

Laminated backs can occasionally be desirable, eg for Selmer style instruments, and Guild style archbacks. The laminated archbacks take away the need for back bracing, and are supposed to have unique projection issues from it. 

Laminated sides seem to be defacto in fashion right now amongst contemporary acoustic guitar builders.  Do you know where this trend originated from?  A quick google seems to suggest it has been around for a while but Smallman Guitars seemed to really propel the innovation.  I've never heard a Smallman played in person, they are supposed to be quite something when heard up close.

I know Laminated necks have been around for a long time.  Larson Bros (IMO one of the greatest) were using them in the 1930's.

Timcito

Tannin said:

We need to distinguish here between a laminated neck and a laminated body. Completely different things. 

A laminated neck is generally regarded as a high-end feature. It costs more to manufacture, and is (in theory) more stable. And of course it looks great. There is no effect worth mentioning on the sound quality. At its simplest, you take one bit of timber and split it up the middle. Then you reverse one of the pieces and glue them back together. Because the two parts are reversed with respect to one another, and tendency to bow (say) to the left from one part is exactly opposed by the other part which (of course) wants to bow right. Result: a very stable neck.

That's right. Most of the high-end Ovations have that lovely 5-piece neck, which, apparently, makes it rock solid.

Timcito

stufisher said:

Great call @Timcito ; ... I'm also a fan of Moon guitars ... have been ever since I first saw Dougie MacLean live c.20 years ago.

My only other experience of a maple back-and-sides guitar had been a Taylor 30th Anniversary model. It looked fantastic, but the sound was pretty dead. I subsequently read that maple had little sustain and was more suited to a band setting in which notes needed to cut through but not necessarily sustain. So, when I picked up the Moon OM in Sitka and maple, I was expecting a similar fast attack with little sustain. Wrong. It sang like you wouldn't believe. It was alive with a gorgeous, ringing sustain.

Oh, why didn't I buy it!   

thomasross20

Always buy when the magic happens or face eternal regret

Kittyfrisk

thomasross20 said:

Always buy when the magic happens or face eternal regret

You are accruing wisdom, grasshopper. 

TheBigDipper

thomasross20 said:

Always buy when the magic happens or face eternal regret

Beautiful expression of "Shoppers Law". The thing you didn't buy at the time and go back for later has always been sold to someone else. 

Tannin

thomasross20 said:

Always buy when the magic happens or face eternal regret

That makes good sense. I have also thought of applying this wise principle to other parts of life. For example, "Always propose marriage when you have a hard-on or face .... " 

Hmmm ... on second thoughts, maybe not.

thomasross20

Lol

guitarjack66

thomasross20 said:

Always buy when the magic happens or face eternal regret

If within budget, is my caveat.