PA kit advice - 4 piece pub covers band

roundthebend

We did our first gig on Saturday. Hired a pair of 15" active speakers and a sub (with crossover?), used my own 12" active pair as monitors, hired a 16 channel analogue mixing desk, and borrowed a Behringer EQ on advice that it can help control feedback. Someone helped us set up and adjust levels. We sounded pretty good.

Going forward we can't be hiring kit all the time. Especially since, if you've seen my post in Off Topic, the hired kit turned out to be stolen and has been seized by the police so we've not got that option open any more.

We need something simple to set up and use, and ideally not too large to store.
Should we just be going for a similar setup to what we used on that gig?

Band setup - 

• Electronic drums
• 4 vocal mics
• 2 guitarists (using valve combos not mic'd up)
• 1 bassist (can he go direct to PA perhaps, with a DI or modelling pedal?)

Our sound engineer assistant talked to me about digital mixers making life easier for controlling feedback, rather than needing an EQ or extra features on the mixer. My own little Behringer Xenyx 1202FX doesn't have the dial he was using (frequency) and also doesn't have balanced/XLR outputs to the speakers.

Musicwolf

It would help to know a little more about the size of venue and budget.

roundthebend

Musicwolf said:

It would help to know a little more about the size of venue and budget.

Cool. I thought I'd covered venue size in the title but I'll try and be more specific. We're talking about your typical pub that has a band on at the weekends, shoved in a corner or maybe in a dedicated stage area. We probably had 50+ people watching us on Saturday just gone, I can imagine some gigs might get up to 100 people.

Budget - well, we don't want to spend loads of money so whatever it takes to get us a simple and usable sound. Our punters aren't going to be worried about it, as long as we can be heard and as long as the band have got some foldback to keep us all tuned in to each other.

I'm wondering if my 12" actives might be good enough for vocals and some of the higher frequency percussion sounds, but add a sub to get the kick sound booming. Then maybe we can save space and get some small monitors. A new desk is going to be needed, and one that has enough features to help us control EQ/frequency so we can manage feedback.

If I have to spend £800 that would be OK. Any more and I'll be hunting around on ebay.

Musicwolf

Sounds as though you are playing very similar venues to my band.  We also have electronic drums although ours are backing tracks using Superior Drummer plus the bass is going through the PA (as are the two guitars which are using modellers).

For what it's worth we use a pair of Yamaha DXR12's and a Behringer XR-18 digital mixer.  It's plenty loud enough but without subs it's never going to give you trouser flapping bottom end.  That's about £2k at todays prices (plus leads. stands, monitors etc), so more than you're looking to pay.

For under £1k all in I think that you're best looking for used.  If you plan to get a sub then 12 or even 10" tops will work much better than 15".  There are three things that you need to know about subs - they're big, they're heavy and they're expensive.  If they're not all of those things then they are probably not very good.

roundthebend

Well I've got a pair of active 12" speakers so maybe a sub and mixer is all we need, then monitors.

uberscott

We're pretty much the same set as you OP in terms of performers, instruments, and venues. Main difference is guitars and bass are all modellers so no amps on stage. 

We run an RCF M18 mixer (much the same as the Behringer) into 2x Yamaha DBR12s and a DXS15 sub, we got the Yamaha kit second hand for £750 - so far it's been great, especially since we switched from acoustic to electronic drums, the sub really comes into its own there. We also use the RCF mixer to send IEM mixes for each member via the aux sends. 

roundthebend

uberscott said:

We're pretty much the same set as you OP in terms of performers, instruments, and venues. Main difference is guitars and bass are all modellers so no amps on stage. 

We run an RCF M18 mixer (much the same as the Behringer) into 2x Yamaha DBR12s and a DXS15 sub, we got the Yamaha kit second hand for £750 - so far it's been great, especially since we switched from acoustic to electronic drums, the sub really comes into its own there. We also use the RCF mixer to send IEM mixes for each member via the aux sends. 

Cool. What do you use for IEMs? We'll just need a sub and IEMs to complete a basic kit.

maltingsaudio

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

roundthebend

maltingsaudio said:

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

Interesting. How does a wired system work in practise? I play guitar and move about a bit, do I just run the wires alongside my guitar cables so I only have one "loom" to think about? Or is it wireless up to a belt or pocket device, then wired up to my ears?

@Danny1969; I'm intrigued to hear what you recommend

Danny1969

roundthebend said:

maltingsaudio said:

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

Interesting. How does a wired system work in practise? I play guitar and move about a bit, do I just run the wires alongside my guitar cables so I only have one "loom" to think about? Or is it wireless up to a belt or pocket device, then wired up to my ears?

@Danny1969; I'm intrigued to hear what you recommend

The guitar cable carries your guitar signal and IEM stereo signal .... nothing clever,  it's just a multicore cable with a break out box for the IEM's ... I've been using the system for around 12 years and sold loads to professional musicians who realise it's pointless having wireless IEM's if the guitar isn't wireless and on most stages it's pointless to have a wireless guitar setup. 

It's an expensive guitar cable at £50 but it's cheaper than running a wireless IEM setup and sonically superior as there's no radio interference and no batteries required. 

PolarityMan

wireless does make guitar changes quicker, especially when you are also using IEMS as less stuff to get tangled up. 

Danny1969

PolarityMan said:

wireless does make guitar changes quicker, especially when you are also using IEMS as less stuff to get tangled up. 

I was doing a lot of guitar changes on the KB tribute last year and worked out if I ran the IEM cable inwards of the strap, which is where I always run the guitar cable then changing guitars just means unplug from guitar, put lead in pocket, put down and pickup other guitar and plug in. So it makes no difference it's an IEM & guitar combination cable now. 

I did always want a really good guitar and IEM wireless setup but even paying top money for a Senn unit didn't stop radio interference issues ... not just with the normal congested channels but with various electrical items in the theatres causing  noise in the system. 

Musicwolf

I'm with @Danny1969 with regard to wired. A length of copper wire is going to give you the best quality, best reliability and, by far, at the lowest cost.

For a wired system you will need an aux send from the mixer.  If each band member wants their own in ear mix, and they more than likely will, then that's one send per band member.  If they want a stereo in ear mix then that's a stereo aux or 2x mono aux per band member.  This means that you are most likely looking at a digital desk.

The aux bus then needs to feed a headphone amplifier.  This can either be on the pedal board (I think that this is what Danny uses) or a belt worn pack but it really should be equipped with a limiter to protect your hearing.

Finally, a pair of ear buds.  I use Shure SE535s, which are a triple driver generic fit, but I was planning to get custom moulds made.  A good fit is essential for bass response.

You need to spend some time getting the mix right for everyone and getting used to the whole IEM thing.  When people say that they can't hear something in their mix, rather than turning that up, I ask them what they would like less of.  Best solution is to have each band member in control of their own mix which with a digital mixer you can often do with with an app on their phone.  If you have a mixer such as the Behringer XR-18 you could each have a P16-M which is a mixer and a headphone amp and which doesn't tie up any aux busses.

bloodandtears

Danny1969 said:

roundthebend said:

maltingsaudio said:

For IEMs suggest you go for wired as opposed to wireless which will cut down on cost @Danny1969 does a nice little setup for this

Interesting. How does a wired system work in practise? I play guitar and move about a bit, do I just run the wires alongside my guitar cables so I only have one "loom" to think about? Or is it wireless up to a belt or pocket device, then wired up to my ears?

@Danny1969; I'm intrigued to hear what you recommend

The guitar cable carries your guitar signal and IEM stereo signal .... nothing clever,  it's just a multicore cable with a break out box for the IEM's ... I've been using the system for around 12 years and sold loads to professional musicians who realise it's pointless having wireless IEM's if the guitar isn't wireless and on most stages it's pointless to have a wireless guitar setup. 

It's an expensive guitar cable at £50 but it's cheaper than running a wireless IEM setup and sonically superior as there's no radio interference and no batteries required. 

Other than a set of headphones and the monitor send from the mixer, is there any other gizmo you need/use in this IEM set up?

Danny1969

@bloodandtears ;
You still need a headphone amp and you need the right kind of cable to convert aux sends .. which are generally balanced differential outputs to single ended outs. 

To do this short pin 3 of an XLR output to ground. If it's a balanced TRS output then short the ring to ground. That will give you a singled ended IEM signal. For stereo use 2 aux outs converted in this way. . Then the grounds of these 2 go to TRS ground of the headphone amp in and the signals go to the ring and tip of the TRS input of the headphone amp. 

I did make a version where I installed a headphone amp in the actual cable itself which was powered from the pedalboards neg centre 9V supply 



But It's a fiddly to make, although happy to share technical details to anyone who wants them. 

bloodandtears

Danny1969 said:

@bloodandtears ;
You still need a headphone amp and you need the right kind of cable to convert aux sends .. which are generally balanced differential outputs to single ended outs. 

To do this short pin 3 of an XLR output to ground. If it's a balanced TRS output then short the ring to ground. That will give you a singled ended IEM signal. For stereo use 2 aux outs converted in this way. . Then the grounds of these 2 go to TRS ground of the headphone amp in and the signals go to the ring and tip of the TRS input of the headphone amp. 

I did make a version where I installed a headphone amp in the actual cable itself which was powered from the pedalboards neg centre 9V supply 



But It's a fiddly to make, although happy to share technical details to anyone who wants them. 

I see it..  more complicated than just the fancy cable and an amp then..  as you were..

PolarityMan

Musicwolf said:

I'm with @Danny1969 with regard to wired. A length of copper wire is going to give you the best quality, best reliability and, by far, at the lowest cost.

For a wired system you will need an aux send from the mixer.  If each band member wants their own in ear mix, and they more than likely will, then that's one send per band member.  If they want a stereo in ear mix then that's a stereo aux or 2x mono aux per band member.  This means that you are most likely looking at a digital desk.

The aux bus then needs to feed a headphone amplifier.  This can either be on the pedal board (I think that this is what Danny uses) or a belt worn pack but it really should be equipped with a limiter to protect your hearing.

Finally, a pair of ear buds.  I use Shure SE535s, which are a triple driver generic fit, but I was planning to get custom moulds made.  A good fit is essential for bass response.

You need to spend some time getting the mix right for everyone and getting used to the whole IEM thing.  When people say that they can't hear something in their mix, rather than turning that up, I ask them what they would like less of.  Best solution is to have each band member in control of their own mix which with a digital mixer you can often do with with an app on their phone.  If you have a mixer such as the Behringer XR-18 you could each have a P16-M which is a mixer and a headphone amp and which doesn't tie up any aux busses.

This is all very good advice but it does mean that the drummer will get to control his own mix leading to situations like this:

"Hey why does everything sound like shit all of a sudden"
"Ummm well maybe given you're the only instrument making any noise int he room you could use a bit less of the drums in the mix...also why is tom1 have its fader on full blast?" 

ElectricXII

Some great info here, which reinforces my luddite intention to continue to use f*cking great monitors and loud guitar amps on stage.

roundthebend

Would I be right in thinking that IEMs, even a budget setup with wired stuff, will likely be more costly for a 4 piece band than a pair of well-placed monitors?

I think we'll go down the latter route to begin with. The downside to it being cheaper is that someone needs to store and transport a pair of monitors.

Musicwolf

A battery operated headphone amp could be as little as £50-60 each, it's then how much you are prepared to spend on earphones.  You can go from as little as a few 10's of pounds to thousands.  Mine are just under £400 these days but I think that I got them on offer direct from Sennheiser for less than £250 a couple of years ago.

maltingsaudio

I bought a pair of Linsoul earpieces last year, excellant value for money in my opinion, sound is very flat so you might need some eq on the send https://www.amazon.co.uk/Headphone-Faceplace-Detachable-Silver-Plated-Audiophile-Black-X/dp/B0BD812JRN/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?crid=3KDMWGMZSUPOB&keywords=linsoul%2Bkz%2Bzs10%2Bpro&qid=1682527608&sprefix=Linsou%2Caps%2C120&sr=8-2-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&th=1