Maple & cedar guitars

TheMadMick

I was thinking what this wood combination might sound like. I have a couple of cedar topped guitars and they are both great but slightly different. I have a single guitar with maple B&S and it is incredibly focused on the fundamental of the note as it's played.

Seems to me the combination could be a winner. The samples on YouTube seem to bear this out.

Has anyone any experience they can bring to bear on the mater before I take it any further?

Tannin

Not really. I have a maple guitar - Tacoma Thunderhawk baritone, Sitka Spruce and Rock Maple - and I have a cedar guitar - Maton SRS60 Custom, cedar and Queensland Maple (which despite the name is nothing to do with maple) and I love them both for different reasons.

That tautness and crisp snap of the maple would match brilliantly with cedar, I reckon. I'd be doubtful of doing it in too small a body, maple needs to be a decent side to develop enough bass for my ear.

My cedar-top dreadnought is beautifully balanced. Queensland Maple is a gentler, more neutral-sounding timber than Rock Maple or European Maple, not so trebly, but not a million miles away sound-wise. 

So I vote YES!

thomasross20

Isn't Queensland maple more toward the mahogany end? Sounds good as I'm not big into snap and piercing trebles

Tannin

Indeed it is @thomasross20, but it's nevertheless closer to maple than maple is to rosewood. (Well, most things are.)

Numbers don't tell the whole story @thomasross20 but they are not a bad place to start.

Here are a few of the better-known back and sides timbers with density, hardness, and modulus of elasticity (essentially stiffness) expressed as percentages, using Honduran Mahogany as the base unit. 

* Port Orford Cedar 79% (65%) 113%
* Cedro (aka Spanish Cedar) 80% (66%) 91%
* Queensland Maple 95% (90%) 108%
* Honduran Mahogany 100% (100%) 100%
* Koa 103% (129%) 103%
* Blackwood 108% (129%) 147%
* Common Walnut 108% (135%) 107%
* Common Maple 109% (112%) 105%
* Rock Maple 119% (160%) 125%
* Indian Rosewood 141% (270%) 114%

As you can see, Queensland Maple is 5% lighter than mahogany, 10% less dense, and 8% stiffer.  Obviously, timber varies a lot and average figures of this sort are indeed just averages. Let's simply say that Queensland Maple is a little softer and stiffer than mahogany. We know that the sound is more rounded and less dry, but not wildly different.

OK, what about maple? Well, maples ain't maples! There are many species. Rock Maple (US & Canada) is a bit heavier and a bit stiffer than mahogany, and much harder. As we know, it has a pronounced ring to it with a crisp top end. 

As for Common Maple (aka European Maple) I don't know. what it sounds like! I've never played a guitar made from it, though I gather that it is a very well-established tonewood.  (Old Antonio Stradivari seemed to think it was better than OK for making violins after all). On the numbers, it should be a bit like Rock Maple but more mellow. 

All that said, all three fall into the medium-weight, medium-hardness, medium-strength class alongside the true mahoganies, a whole host of quasi-mahoganies (such as Khaya), and other popular back and sides woods like Koa, Blackwood, and walnut. As such, they are not wildly different to one another. 

(And yes. Scratch a geek. I want one of each of them.)

(And a confession. I didn't have to look those figures up for this post,  I have a spreadsheet full of them. Yes, don't tell me. I'll get my coat anorak.)

thomasross20

Love that sort of detail! 
Absolutely rammed at work so need to catch up on all the chat

TheMadMick

Took out my Guild with maple B&S and a spruce top. Once again it surprised me how good it sounds (to my ear anyway).

Think I'll go with what I have at present and avoid selling one guitar to get another (she who must be obeyed has said no more).

TheMadMick

Well, I've consulted with Steve McIwrath at Avalon and he seems to think the same as I do that Maple/cedar should give me what I'm after. Am I just about to sink a significant sum of money in this? I think so.

Wish me luck. I may need it.

Mellish

@TheMadMick ; hmm... what about "She who must be obeyed". Didn't she say "No more"? Or is it one out before one in, like I have to put up with?  

Dyldog16

I think cedar/maple combos can be fab depending on the builder. Maple can be 2-D, too crisp/clinical for my taste although great for recording with. I once played a tiger maple/cedar OM combo made by David Webber in Canada, now retired. It's one of the best guitars that I've ever played because the cedar top gave it such warmth, more air & more 3-D without the bloom & overtone rich characteristics of rosewood. The note definition was fab too, the cedar softened the uber crispness  so it had both the crispness,warmth & richness. It was one of the best fingerstyle guitars that I've ever played. Ultimately this combo is fantastic in the right builder's hands!

TheMadMick

Mellish said:

@TheMadMick ; hmm... what about "She who must be obeyed". Didn't she say "No more"? Or is it one out before one in, like I have to put up with?  

Trying to finesse this. I'm not that competent on the bass so selling / getting rid of that and counting it "one out". Hope my marriage tackle survives

Mellish

TheMadMick said:

Mellish said:

@TheMadMick ; hmm... what about "She who must be obeyed". Didn't she say "No more"? Or is it one out before one in, like I have to put up with?  

Trying to finesse this. I'm not that competent on the bass so selling / getting rid of that and counting it "one out". Hope my marriage tackle survives

Just turn on the charm mate  

TheMadMick

Anyone want a Warwick Rockbass Corvette 4A? It's on Bass£ dated today.

thomasross20

Webber guitars meant to be absolutely fantastic. Canadian luthiery school is just the best.

Tannin

TheMadMick said:

Mellish said:

@TheMadMick ; hmm... what about "She who must be obeyed". Didn't she say "No more"? Or is it one out before one in, like I have to put up with?  

Trying to finesse this. I'm not that competent on the bass so selling / getting rid of that and counting it "one out". Hope my marriage tackle survives

You'll be right mate. If in doubt, always ask for forgiveness, not permission. 

I just had to apply a touch of finesse myself, for the same reason. Well, "finesse" isn't quite the right word, something a bit more in the brute force direction I think. With a view to avoiding wedding tackle damage over the little matter of my new Brook (ordering it the week after next), and needing to get an extra guitar out of the house ASAP, I just gave my USA-made Guild to my brother as a birthday present. He likes it and was going to buy it from me, one day, sort-of-probably, at a future date. Maybe. Now, it's out of the house and I can still wee without medical intervention.

Come to think of it, I never play my bass these days .... 

TheMadMick

Well, that was quick. I've shifted the bass so all clear for my new Avalon. Due early October - it's a holiday time in N Ireland (12th fortnight)

Watch this space.

Tannin

Watching ....:)

TheMadMick

Thought this might be of interest:

Expected Completion: 29/09/2023
Model: Pioneer A1-340C
Collection Pioneer
Shape Auditorium Cutaway
Scale Length 648mm
Soundboard Western Red Cedar (Thuja plicata)
Soundboard Edge Inlay None
Back & Sides Bigleaf Maple - Figured (Acer macrophyllum)
Bracing AXE pattern
Bindings Flamed Australian Blackwood
Purflings Luthiers choice
Rosette Wood Rosette as per reference pic
End Pin Wedge Flamed Australian Blackwood framed with Rosewood purfling
Neck Maple with Rosewood centre laminate
Fingerboard Ebony
Fingerboard Inlay None
Fretwire Standard
Nut & Saddle Ox bone
Truss Rod Bi-flex
Fingerboard Binding Ebony
Fretboard Side Dot Markers Mother-of-Pearl 3/5/7/9/12x2/15/17/19 Double dots on 12th Fret
Bridge Ebony
Bridge Pins Ebony with MOP Dot
Machineheads Gotoh SG381's with black buttons
No. of Frets 20
Headstock facing Ebony
Headstock Binding None
Heel Cap Flamed Australian Blackwood
Logo MOP
Finish Nitro-cellulose satin finish
Strings D’Addario EXP16's (.12 - .53's) VERY LOW ACTION
Electronics L R Baggs Anthem SL
Case Hiscox GAD
Pickguard Yes - clear
Strap Button Yes - position 2

Also, Steve McIlwrath says this is unique. They ahve no record of such a guitar ever having been made by Avalon.

drofluf

Going to be a long 2 months!

Soupman

@TheMadMick you have me drooling....
(I'd better be careful before I end up in a care home....!)
 
 

TheMadMick

Some really good news from Steve at Avalon:

"Some good news: the only maple we had that was big enough for a jumbo is the figured stuff, so you’ll have a free upgrade. We’re just going to build it now as an Ard Rí for the price we agreed - it does the material justice!"

Ard Ri is Irish for King. It's not so different construction wise but fancier finish.

Happy days.

Vinny

TheMadMick said:

Some really good news from Steve at Avalon:

"Some good news: the only maple we had that was big enough for a jumbo is the figured stuff, so you’ll have a free upgrade. We’re just going to build it now as an Ard Rí for the price we agreed - it does the material justice!"

Ard Ri is Irish for King. It's not so different construction wise but fancier finish.

Happy days.

Even better, Ard Rí is High King, the king of lesser kings. Congrats on your new build.
I’ve three Avalons myself, so obviously a fan too.