Did/does anyone find the "self-taught"/online route more productive than private lessons?

bobacco

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F. 

He told me to scrap this and use his method of a pattern which is as follows, pick a note, ie the G note on the 3rd fret low E string. Then to go 2 across 2 down, 3 across 2 down, and 2 across 3 up to locate all the other G strings on the fretboard. This seems to work to an extent, but the problem I’m having with this is that let’s say I start on the 7th fret low E string with a B note, and follow this pattern to locate all the other Bs, the pattern works from the 7th fret until the end of the board and back up to the 7th fret, but then if I want to locate the Bs prior to the 7th fret, all of a sudden the pattern doesn’t work anymore. If that makes any sense at all!? 

I’ve sent him a message asking him about this but does the above sound right? 

These are essentially octave shapes, and will transpose into any key - but you are limited by the number of frets available (in either direction). 

Learning the notes on a single string isn’t to be discouraged (see The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick - first thing he drills if I recall!) but learning the octave shapes helps in that it can help with fretboard movement / fluidity. 

Daniele Gottardo has a DVD called Superfingering which uses the octave approach and describes them as ‘containers’ - with an octave shape, you have your upper and lower bounds (the tonic note) which you can then ‘flesh out’ with either chord tones (for chords or arpeggios) or scalar notes. (Caveat: Daniele is Italian and thus so is the DVD language - there’s an English overdub that’s a bit mental, almost gratingly so!)

To address your example: with the root note on the 6th string (B on the 7th of the low E), you’d need to descend three frets and ascend three strings. So - the B you’re looking for is on the 4th fret of the G string. This will work for all notes on the 6th string, but naturally you’ll get to the G on the 3rd fret and need to utilise the open string on the G string (think of open strings as ‘fret zero’). The F# on the 2nd fret is where it falls over and the shape is no longer viable. 

Another cool thing is that the shapes on the low E carry to the A string - without alteration for the ‘higher fret’ (namely the ‘up two frets, up two strings’) shapes and with the shape I outlined above, you need to remember that G-B is a major third - whereas D-G is a perfect fourth. In simple terms, this means that the G-B string pair is one fret closer together than the D-G pair (when spelled linearly). What does this mean? You simply need to shift notes which fall on the B string up a fret so that the intervallic relationship is intact. For example, you’ve done the 7th fret B - B octave shape on the E and G strings and move up a string to the E on the 7th fret of the A string. Keeping the shape formula (three frets down, three strings up) puts you on 4th fret of the B string - Eb / D#. That’s a major 7th! And all you need do to get the octave? Shift up a fret - hey presto, there’s the E! 

Note: the ‘shrunken’ shape persists on the D string octave shape, too. 

(Hope this helps; on mobile and fear it’s just a blathering mess of word soup!)

ms21

bobacco said:

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F. 

He told me to scrap this and use his method of a pattern which is as follows, pick a note, ie the G note on the 3rd fret low E string. Then to go 2 across 2 down, 3 across 2 down, and 2 across 3 up to locate all the other G strings on the fretboard. This seems to work to an extent, but the problem I’m having with this is that let’s say I start on the 7th fret low E string with a B note, and follow this pattern to locate all the other Bs, the pattern works from the 7th fret until the end of the board and back up to the 7th fret, but then if I want to locate the Bs prior to the 7th fret, all of a sudden the pattern doesn’t work anymore. If that makes any sense at all!? 

I’ve sent him a message asking him about this but does the above sound right? 

These are essentially octave shapes, and will transpose into any key - but you are limited by the number of frets available (in either direction). 

Learning the notes on a single string isn’t to be discouraged (see The Advancing Guitarist by Mick Goodrick - first thing he drills if I recall!) but learning the octave shapes helps in that it can help with fretboard movement / fluidity. 

Daniele Gottardo has a DVD called Superfingering which uses the octave approach and describes them as ‘containers’ - with an octave shape, you have your upper and lower bounds (the tonic note) which you can then ‘flesh out’ with either chord tones (for chords or arpeggios) or scalar notes. (Caveat: Daniele is Italian and thus so is the DVD language - there’s an English overdub that’s a bit mental, almost gratingly so!)

To address your example: with the root note on the 6th string (B on the 7th of the low E), you’d need to descend three frets and ascend three strings. So - the B you’re looking for is on the 4th fret of the G string. This will work for all notes on the 6th string, but naturally you’ll get to the G on the 3rd fret and need to utilise the open string on the G string (think of open strings as ‘fret zero’). The F# on the 2nd fret is where it falls over and the shape is no longer viable. 

Another cool thing is that the shapes on the low E carry to the A string - without alteration for the ‘higher fret’ (namely the ‘up two frets, up two strings’) shapes and with the shape I outlined above, you need to remember that G-B is a major third - whereas D-G is a perfect fourth. In simple terms, this means that the G-B string pair is one fret closer together than the D-G pair (when spelled linearly). What does this mean? You simply need to shift notes which fall on the B string up a fret so that the intervallic relationship is intact. For example, you’ve done the 7th fret B - B octave shape on the E and G strings and move up a string to the E on the 7th fret of the A string. Keeping the shape formula (three frets down, three strings up) puts you on 4th fret of the B string - Eb / D#. That’s a major 7th! And all you need do to get the octave? Shift up a fret - hey presto, there’s the E! 

Note: the ‘shrunken’ shape persists on the D string octave shape, too. 

(Hope this helps; on mobile and fear it’s just a blathering mess of word soup!)

Thanks for the detailed response. The thing I’ve asked him in a text if it’s simply a pattern to locate octaves or to locate all the individual notes. He said that it was for the latter but that doesn’t seem to make sense. As you said, using my example, to go from the 7th fret B to the 4th fret B, I’m using a completely different pattern than the one he’s given me and he didn’t provide me with this at all. He simply gave me the 2across2down, 3across2down and 2across3up pattern and said this will locate all the notes on the board. So I guess I’m asking if this is all a bit of a red flag? He hasn’t yet replied to my text and don’t want to constantly barrage him with questions outside of lesson hours, but this seems quite important to me!

bobacco

Those patterns are just octaves - they won’t help you spell out different intervals as much as give you milestones / anchors from which to do so. 

They’re definitely valuable, but I’d say what you’re specifically after is anchors for other intervals? For that, a good way to start is to take your basic major scale shape and play the root note, then the second note in the scale, then third, etc and familiarise yourself with not only with the sound of the intervals, but also the ‘formula’ which makes the pattern (frets and strings as we have discussed). Try playing the intervals harmonically (together) and melodically (successive). You’ll find that some harmonic intervals won’t work as the scale shape places the intervals on the same string - this forces you to think outside the box and locate the note in an alternative location so you can sound them simultaneously. Limitation exercises are also great for this kinda thing (for example, limiting yourself to say, 3-4 strings instead of the full range of the instrument) in terms of forcing you to figure things out on the fly - but that said, a good grounding using the shapes is key. Drill that in until it’s second nature!

One hearty recommendation is the Tom Quayle app, Sølo. Whether or not you’re a fan of Tom’s music, there’s no question that he’s a fantastic educator and the app is perfect for building a masterful knowledge of the fretboard and the patterns and relationships therein. It’s worth every penny - the tutorial videos alone are worth the price of entry. 

He also has some good YouTube material which doesn’t necessarily need the app:

https://youtu.be/dhwix_UAkm0

viz

I was self-taught but unfortunately I'm not a very good teacher.

Timcito

I've always been under the impression that most steel-string guitar players are and have always been self-taught. When I was growing up in the 70s, I learned the trumpet 'officially' - lessons, school orchestra, etc. and the guitar unofficially, forming a part of my alternative culture persona The guitar was a kind of 'rogue-instrument-and-proud-of-it.' It was what some of us did in despite of our parents and teachers. I remember once the headmaster having a go at us 6th formers who were due to take our A-levels that year. He called us lazy s.o.bs. (though he obviously didn't use that expression!) and said we sat around at home plucking our banjos all day. 'Banjos' was his way of denigrating the guitar, suggesting it was silly and unworthy.

I guess times have changed now, but I wonder how far the tradition has lived on - that while we take lessons with the piano, the clarinet, or the trombone, we learn the guitar in our rooms using whatever tools we can find to help us on our way.

guitarjack66

Timcito said:

I've always been under the impression that most steel-string guitar players are and have always been self-taught. When I was growing up in the 70s, I learned the trumpet 'officially' - lessons, school orchestra, etc. and the guitar unofficially, forming a part of my alternative culture persona The guitar was a kind of 'rogue-instrument-and-proud-of-it.' It was what some of us did in despite of our parents and teachers. I remember once the headmaster having a go at us 6th formers who were due to take our A-levels that year. He called us lazy s.o.bs. (though he obviously didn't use that expression!) and said we sat around at home plucking our banjos all day. 'Banjos' was his way of denigrating the guitar, suggesting it was silly and unworthy.

I guess times have changed now, but I wonder how far the tradition has lived on - that while we take lessons with the piano, the clarinet, or the trombone, we learn the guitar in our rooms using whatever tools we can find to help us on our way.

I always felt schools were biased towards classical instruments but I don't exactly know why. Maybe it's because of it's structure and how schools work to structures and parameters themselves? 

Lestratcaster

I don't think I've ever taught anyone to learn the notes on the fretboard from the start. Most, if not all my learners want to play their favourite artist songs and it would take them ages to learn it themselves and know if they're playing it right. Part of the fun is them choosing the style they want to play and I devise a plan in how they're going to get there.

For the ones doing graded exams then its a bit more theory and technique based. The casual song learners are just there to enjoy playing and for me to show them where to put their hands on the guitar and play along to the recording. Some are now building the ear training skills to work out bits of songs for themselves which is good. Or at least can hear where the verses and choruses are and how long they are in bar length, then the rhythm, etc.

Teetonetal

Change teachers. He doesn't sound like a good fit. Unfortunately, there are a lot of quite poor guitar teachers around who don't really have an idea on how to teach effectively. 

If you can find a good teacher, then I really do believe it is the best way of learning how to play, but you will need to put the practice in to get the most out of it. 

In my opinion, a song based approach for learning skills, technique and theory is not really the most efficient -  For example, I would prefer targeted exercises  to develop the technique, some theory to enable me to use it and then maybe a song to put help put it into context and practice.

As others have said, playing with others is also very worth while and can help accelerate your development.

Finally be broad minded, and at least look at a few styles the are outside your traditional listening habits, it helps broaden your knowledge.

Tannin

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F. 

He told me to scrap this and use his method 

If a student came to me and showed that he had made good progress learning useful stuff like that, I hope and trust I would have had sufficient flexibility of mind to say "Great! Keep it up. Here is a tip or two to help you along the way." (I used to teach back in the day. Not music other stuff, but teaching is teaching and good teaching is good teaching - and bad teaching is bad teaching.

Time to scrap that teacher. Find one who can get on a wavelength with you.

roberty

ms21 said:

roberty said:

Took me four goes to find the right tutor for me. Went online in the end, Skype lessons. For me personally it really mattered to have a tutor whose playing I genuinely admired

Yeah I think this may be a big thing for me too. I’ve had a look on the website Fiverr and found some awesome players. But of course it’s all remote. How did you find not being able to jam over Zoom, though? As I guess there’d be latency issues? Or did you have a workaround? 

It was a bit frustrating that we couldn't jam to be honest. But I still got a lot out of it

Lestratcaster

Teetonetal said:

In my opinion, a song based approach for learning skills, technique and theory is not really the most efficient -  For example, I would prefer targeted exercises  to develop the technique, some theory to enable me to use it and then maybe a song to put help put it into context and practice.

I don't agree. I've used a song approach method for years and its worked with alot of learners as its puts into application the skills needed to play something musical - chord shapes, changing between them, rhythm, timing, and interaction between the guitar and other instruments. Plus they get bored of an exercise pretty quickly if they can't play anything they know.

Most of the pop artist guitarists who play live have the skill to play like machines to a click, very repetitive patterns for about 3 minutes without making a mistake. This, is in fact harder than shredding or some widdly blues solo you're free to improvise. You'd be amazed at how many first timers I see for lessons who can't actually settle down and play a disciplined pattern for 1 minute straight let alone 3.

Of course there are a couple of learners who I throw in some technical exercises on the side so it becomes a hybrid thing so a bit of both.

thing

guitarjack66 said:

Timcito said:

I've always been under the impression that most steel-string guitar players are and have always been self-taught. When I was growing up in the 70s, I learned the trumpet 'officially' - lessons, school orchestra, etc. and the guitar unofficially, forming a part of my alternative culture persona The guitar was a kind of 'rogue-instrument-and-proud-of-it.' It was what some of us did in despite of our parents and teachers. I remember once the headmaster having a go at us 6th formers who were due to take our A-levels that year. He called us lazy s.o.bs. (though he obviously didn't use that expression!) and said we sat around at home plucking our banjos all day. 'Banjos' was his way of denigrating the guitar, suggesting it was silly and unworthy.

I guess times have changed now, but I wonder how far the tradition has lived on - that while we take lessons with the piano, the clarinet, or the trombone, we learn the guitar in our rooms using whatever tools we can find to help us on our way.

I always felt schools were biased towards classical instruments but I don't exactly know why. Maybe it's because of it's structure and how schools work to structures and parameters themselves? 

Because it gets the most amount of kids into a band structure. You can put quite an effective school orchestra together with kids with very basic skills on their instruments. The kids (and parents) love it.

Cranky

Get a different teacher.  Too many guitar teachers phone it in, they don’t listen, don’t assess and don’t plan based on assessment.

I think a good private teacher once per month or every other week is a good balance with what you’ll be able to supplement by YT content and self-teaching.

ms21

Thanks everyone for your replies. Looks like I’m in the market for a new teacher. I took a couple more lessons with him and hashed out my concerns this week. 

If anyone has any recommendations of people they can vouch for. That’ll help with developing me and my practice, I’d really appreciate that. Will definitely take seals of approval from the community on this website seriously. 

For face to face, I’m happy to travel anywhere in the London area. But also open to doing Zoom lessons for the right teacher. 

Lestratcaster

Don't know where you're based but I teach online (have been doing so for 3 years now). Can provide references if required.

Rocker

Playing guitar for four hours each day is your problem my friend. You need to give your brain a rest. You need time to listen to music, your favourite music and try to include music from way off your usual listening patterns. 

Technique will only get you so far. Nobody wants to listen to displays of technical excellence. Music comes from within you, hence my suggestion to listen to music you would not usually listen to. A three note run might link two chords. It might be ‘simple’ to execute but can sound gorgeous. And really wow your listeners. 

But my most important bit of advice is to (somehow) get playing with other musicians. Even if the end result is playing for your own enjoyment, you gain as you learn to listen to others playing. You learn about dynamics, timing and how to play music. Rather than playing guitar. Play music and you will get what it is that you are searching for from your guitar. 

Greatape

Just to reiterate, elaborate on and amplify things already said, as you do seem to want to be the best you can:

Timing. Whoever said it was 90% was on the money. Metronome practice every day to regularly reinforce the sense of the pulse in your head. For a humbling experience, try semibreves at say 80bpm and see how accurately you can do it. Then drop beats 2,3 & 4 from the click and see how well you do....
This is not so you can play metronomically, but to constantly reinforce that sense of time, so you can confidently and accurately play where you choose in relation to the beat. 

Knowing note names: the easiest way is to learn to read. If you're only two years in, start now. It opens up worlds to you. 

Playing with others: definitely teaches you a lot. 

Harmony: learn how chords are built. This plus knowing note names is the key to the fretboard, not endlessly milling up and down scales at a faster and faster pace. 

I'd also agree that tackling pieces is a good way to go. 

One last note: not saying this teacher was right for you, but it's worth considering that you might not know what you don't know. Sometimes, the teacher is right. 

Good luck

guitarjack66

thing said:

guitarjack66 said:

Timcito said:

I've always been under the impression that most steel-string guitar players are and have always been self-taught. When I was growing up in the 70s, I learned the trumpet 'officially' - lessons, school orchestra, etc. and the guitar unofficially, forming a part of my alternative culture persona The guitar was a kind of 'rogue-instrument-and-proud-of-it.' It was what some of us did in despite of our parents and teachers. I remember once the headmaster having a go at us 6th formers who were due to take our A-levels that year. He called us lazy s.o.bs. (though he obviously didn't use that expression!) and said we sat around at home plucking our banjos all day. 'Banjos' was his way of denigrating the guitar, suggesting it was silly and unworthy.

I guess times have changed now, but I wonder how far the tradition has lived on - that while we take lessons with the piano, the clarinet, or the trombone, we learn the guitar in our rooms using whatever tools we can find to help us on our way.

I always felt schools were biased towards classical instruments but I don't exactly know why. Maybe it's because of it's structure and how schools work to structures and parameters themselves? 

Because it gets the most amount of kids into a band structure. You can put quite an effective school orchestra together with kids with very basic skills on their instruments. The kids (and parents) love it.

Ok,I get that now. I will say though that at my school none of the 'cool' kids went anywhere near the school band and other kids would actively avoid listening to it if possible. This maybe why I mentioned the classical side as very few kids other than those from more financially able cared for the music played or the instruments used for it. A cacophony of brass instruments needs a good level of playing to produce a pleasant sound. The school orchestra rarely made that sound.

Rio

ms21 said:

Just to update this thread, following the last (my second) lesson, I showed the teacher that I was learning the notes on the fretboard. The way I did this was to simply go through each individual string and then play all the notes from that string up until the 12th fret. So for example open E and then every other E, so 12th fret low E string, 7th fret A string, 2nd fret D string etc etc. For notes EADGB(E), before also adding C and F. 

He told me to scrap this and use his method of a pattern which is as follows, pick a note, ie the G note on the 3rd fret low E string. Then to go 2 across 2 down, 3 across 2 down, and 2 across 3 up to locate all the other G strings on the fretboard. This seems to work to an extent, but the problem I’m having with this is that let’s say I start on the 7th fret low E string with a B note, and follow this pattern to locate all the other Bs, the pattern works from the 7th fret until the end of the board and back up to the 7th fret, but then if I want to locate the Bs prior to the 7th fret, all of a sudden the pattern doesn’t work anymore. If that makes any sense at all!? 

I’ve sent him a message asking him about this but does the above sound right? 

I've had nothing but bad luck with live teachers, so my attitude might be a bit negative.

The pattern thing will work (you can mirror it to learn the downward pattern), but he didn't give you any context for what is essentially a rote method of learning. (OK, you know where the G's are...now what do you do with them and how do they fit with...uh...say...chords?) And telling you to scrap a method you were using and use his method is a clear warning that he's not open to different visualizations of the fingerboard, which are as personalized (IMHO) as fingerprints.

Suggestion: go in with something from one of the bands he's badmouthed, and ask him for help with it. His reaction should give you the answer you're looking for.

Rio

Jfingers

I'm self taught, I started when I was 12. I'm almost 57 now. People regularly compliment me on my acoustic playing.

I like a player called Tom Heyman, he's been playing for years too. He's recently had lessons, never too late to get info from a good teacher.