The F1 thread

Heartfeltdawn

And don't forget on the costs front that in the mid 90's we were doing 16/17 races. The proposed calender for next year is a whopping 21 races with the addition of Azerbaijan, a country that sweats corruption. 

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/

Madness. 

Garthy

Heartfeltdawn said:

Hamilton has made the right choices. In the same breath, it is sad that the right choices involved going to a team who have pretty much had the regulations designed up around them in the same way Ferrari managed in the Schumacher days. 

  These technical regulations were crafted from May 2010 to April 2013, during which each team had a technical representative on the TWG and each member had as much authority as anyone else, so that HRT had as much clout as Ferrari. After May 2013 the TWG was streamlined to include only: Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Mclaren, Williams and Lotus. So that meant Ferrari had one representitive, Renault had two as Lotus would use their PUs for 2014 and Williams switched from Renault to Mercedes at this time, Honda had one as they had already announced they would partner Mclaren at this point and Mercedes had two as there were no plans at this time for Lotus to take Mclaren's share of the engine supply. Renault pushed like mad for these PUs and regulations-and penalties to the point they threatened to leave the sport and Honda would only rejoin if these regulations were pushed through.

chillidoggy

OK, how about this for a new rule: If you threaten to leave the sport, you must carry out your threat, or be thrown out.

Fretwired

chillidoggy said:

OK, how about this for a new rule: If you threaten to leave the sport, you must carry out your threat, or be thrown out.

More like the Mafia .. you cannot leave. Bernie won't want Red Bull to leave. Watch some shenanigans of which Sepp Blatter would be proud to get them an engine. Ferrari engines in return for the FIA becoming the Ferrari International Assistance organisation again.

I didn't realise that Honda's engine development is being run by a 22 year old. I'd have thought experience would count for something. Anyway he doesn't think McLaren will win a race in 2016 either. 

Heartfeltdawn

Garthy said:

  These technical regulations were crafted from May 2010 to April 2013, during which each team had a technical representative on the TWG and each member had as much authority as anyone else, so that HRT had as much clout as Ferrari. After May 2013 the TWG was streamlined to include only: Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Mclaren, Williams and Lotus. So that meant Ferrari had one representitive, Renault had two as Lotus would use their PUs for 2014 and Williams switched from Renault to Mercedes at this time, Honda had one as they had already announced they would partner Mclaren at this point and Mercedes had two as there were no plans at this time for Lotus to take Mclaren's share of the engine supply. Renault pushed like mad for these PUs and regulations-and penalties to the point they threatened to leave the sport and Honda would only rejoin if these regulations were pushed through.

You honestly think HRT had the same clout as Ferrari and weren't just there in a token capacity?

Mercedes had the headstart on how their engine would finish up. They've used the rules well just as Ferrari did in the 90's. When I say that Mercedes had the regulations built up around them, I mean that they tailored their entire strategy around those future rules by starting work on the engine early (I think it was Geoff Willis running that team back in the days when BRawn was involved). 

Renault and Jean Todt did indeed push for these power units. Certainly Renault misjudged how far ahead Mercedes were and how poor their own development would turn out. 

Fretwired

From what I understand Mercedes had already started development and had some of the tech in place. The biggest problem for Renault has been reliability. Until you sort that out you can't develop the engine's power and electrical recovery systems. McLaren or rather Big Ron were idiots forcing Honda into F1 before they'd done more work on the engine

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

More like the Mafia .. you cannot leave. Bernie won't want Red Bull to leave. Watch some shenanigans of which Sepp Blatter would be proud to get them an engine. Ferrari engines in return for the FIA becoming the Ferrari International Assistance organisation again.

From Ferrari's point of view, it makes commercial sense to sell engines to other teams. Joe Saward as usual is right on the money:

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2015/09/28/notebook-from-japan/

That Ferrari IPO is a big event. And it details why Red Bull can't leave quite yet. $500 million is a lot of money to have to give back to the poison dwarf and chums. 

Also very nice to see Joe having a dig at Christian Sylt who is a bit of a dick. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2015/09/25/f1-considered-installing-ejector-seats-in-cars-to-boost-safety/

Fretwired

Interesting .. according to Lauda Mercedes offered Red Bull engines ...

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12475/10008354/niki-lauda-says-red-bull-never-came-back-to-confirm-engine-deal

Garthy

Heartfeltdawn said:

Garthy said:

  These technical regulations were crafted from May 2010 to April 2013, during which each team had a technical representative on the TWG and each member had as much authority as anyone else, so that HRT had as much clout as Ferrari. After May 2013 the TWG was streamlined to include only: Ferrari, Red Bull, Mercedes, Mclaren, Williams and Lotus. So that meant Ferrari had one representitive, Renault had two as Lotus would use their PUs for 2014 and Williams switched from Renault to Mercedes at this time, Honda had one as they had already announced they would partner Mclaren at this point and Mercedes had two as there were no plans at this time for Lotus to take Mclaren's share of the engine supply. Renault pushed like mad for these PUs and regulations-and penalties to the point they threatened to leave the sport and Honda would only rejoin if these regulations were pushed through.

You honestly think HRT had the same clout as Ferrari and weren't just there in a token capacity?

Mercedes had the headstart on how their engine would finish up. They've used the rules well just as Ferrari did in the 90's. When I say that Mercedes had the regulations built up around them, I mean that they tailored their entire strategy around those future rules by starting work on the engine early (I think it was Geoff Willis running that team back in the days when BRawn was involved). 

Renault and Jean Todt did indeed push for these power units. Certainly Renault misjudged how far ahead Mercedes were and how poor their own development would turn out. 

Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, VAG, Honda, Toyota, Cosworth & PURE all knew by the summer of 2010 what the new engines would be. No one manufacturer had a 'head start'.

chillidoggy

Fretwired said:

chillidoggy said:

OK, how about this for a new rule: If you threaten to leave the sport, you must carry out your threat, or be thrown out.

More like the Mafia .. you cannot leave. Bernie won't want Red Bull to leave. Watch some shenanigans of which Sepp Blatter would be proud to get them an engine. Ferrari engines in return for the FIA becoming the Ferrari International Assistance organisation again.

I didn't realise that Honda's engine development is being run by a 22 year old. I'd have thought experience would count for something. Anyway he doesn't think McLaren will win a race in 2016 either. 

All the more reason for Button and Fred to bail.

chillidoggy

Heartfeltdawn said:

Not quite. I'd recommend reading this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formula_One_Group

Whilst using that to figure out this:

https://joesaward.files.wordpress.com/2014/11/f1-payment-structures3.jpg

Bernie is still the top banana but he's not got all of it. The teams have wanted more of the pot for a long time.

Points 2 to 5 cover the same ground for me. There's this constant shit about how F1 is at the top of the technology tree with a runoff down to road cars. In the World Edurance Championship, they've been running a 'slick inter' for at least three seasons. The standard slicks there last for ages with not much performance drop off. Compare that to F1 and its manufactured tyre disintegration ethic. I can't understand what Pirelli gets out of the F1 deal.

The hybrid system seems to work pretty well for the Porsche WEC team this year and has done for Audi. When you see those cars going round Le Mans for 24 hours, they're proving their endurability and relevance to road users far more than a twatty underpowered Honda engine.

Stopping testing mid season has proven to be a false economy. Engine development is stalled. How on earth can a sport be at the forefront of technology if it's not allowed to develop it for the majority of the year?

To my mind the WEC is where the best of the new technology should be demonstrated. LMP1 has been a straight Audi-Porsche fight all year. The big boys take the prizes and look cool but don't race that much. The good classes come lower down, LMP2 and the GT categories. So why not leave all the technology in WEC and make F1 all about driving?

The best racing I have seen all year came at the Goodwood Revival in the St Marys Trophy. Andrew Jordan and Gordon Sheddon, two BTCC drivers, in Lotus Cortinas absolutely scrapped the shit out of each other on the track, only for a Ford Fairlane to come up from the back and win. It was fabulous watching drivers actually drive, decked out in cars with no advanced braking or gearing systems, having to control the slides.

Imagine F1 like this. Simple cars, nothing that advanced, no heavy reliance on aero. A powerful engine that isn't fiendishly complicated. Reduce the amount of computer controlled elements.

Let them use tyres that last for a good long time. Make them so each set can last 50% of a race distance with a bit of degradation in there to be decided upon.

Pit stops? OK, we'll have two stops per race. One stop is a mandatory 30 second stop (in some GT3 competitions, there is a minimum time for a pit stop to allow for driver and tyre changes. This is because some teams run one driver, some run two. It evens things out and keeps things fair). The second is down to the pit crew to show how fast they can do things. You can take each type of stop whenever you like. For some, taking the long stop early might work out, for others the short one first. It will mix things up with traffic and different strategies.

People don't watch F1 to gawp at new technology. They watch it to see racing. They haven't seen it this year.  

Thanks for posting that flow chart, I hadn't realised the staggering amounts of money involved!

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

From what I understand Mercedes had already started development and had some of the tech in place. The biggest problem for Renault has been reliability. Until you sort that out you can't develop the engine's power and electrical recovery systems. McLaren or rather Big Ron were idiots forcing Honda into F1 before they'd done more work on the engine

Yes. 

Garthy said:

Mercedes, Renault, Ferrari, VAG, Honda, Toyota, Cosworth & PURE all knew by the summer of 2010 what the new engines would be. No one manufacturer had a 'head start'.

In terms of HPU and chassis design coming together, they did. The customer teams who used Merc engines were left at a considerable disadvantage in 2014. That's what I'm babbling about. Ferrari failed to make use of that advantage. 

chillidoggy

Button being linked to the new Renault team for next year. I can see that might actually have some legs.

stickyfiddle

chillidoggy said:

Button being linked to the new Renault team for next year. I can see that might actually have some legs.

They should be happy to pay him plenty, and frankly can't be any worse than McLaren. If I'm right that they have big changes planned for the engine next year it could be a goer. And Prost is a JB fan, iirc- Jenson's always been like him than Senna, style-wise.

Fretwired

British Grand Prix at risk?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11894682/Future-of-British-Grand-Prix-at-risk-says-track-boss.html

stickyfiddle

I have to be honest, I have no idea why they have to pay as much as they do. Monaco doesn't. But Monza, Silverstone, Spa, Montreal, Hockenheim/Nurburgring all have to pony up despite being absolutely fundamental to the history of F1. 

A fair arrangement would be F1 taking its fees from the gate, rather than as hosting fees. But that would change the risk profile of the deal and we can't risk Bernie not getting his full paycheque before everyone else, can we?

Heartfeltdawn

Fretwired said:

British Grand Prix at risk?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/11894682/Future-of-British-Grand-Prix-at-risk-says-track-boss.html

Another Christian Sylt article... ha! For those who don't know, Sylt is well known as a Bernie mouthpiece, one who doesn't attend races yet proffers opinion that he knows tons about F1. He rather upset Bernie with the story a few years back about the small amount of tax paid to HMRC. 

As said earlier, Joe Saward reported on Max Mosley's little joke in Japan. 

"However, the prize for the least likely story of the weekend goes to former FIA President Max Mosley who had some fun by convincing a naive journalist, who likes to think he understand the sport, that F1 cars could be fitted with ejector seats. The hack swallowed this story hook, line and sinker, clearly unaware of the operational restrictions of both Formula 1 cars and ejector seats. One idea suggested in the F1 Press Room in Suzuka was that the hack in question should do a test with the system on the circuit, just after the Degner Curve, where the track passes beneath the start of the 130R Corner – or in the tunnel at Monaco."

Christian duly obliges in Forbes. 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/csylt/2015/09/25/f1-considered-installing-ejector-seats-in-cars-to-boost-safety/

Whether it's Formula Money or Pitpass, the bullshit is always strong with Sylt. His task is to attack critics of F1 and Jor Saward gets more than his fair share of attacks. Consider this from 2014 about media accreditation. 

Joe on the 18th of November: - https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2014/11/18/mclaren-delays-announcement/

Christian's retort on the 19th - http://www.pitpass.com/52989/Ecclestone-will-probably-take-over-media-accreditation

fretmeister

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/121072

EU complaint now lodged about fee structure / prize money etc.

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

I have to be honest, I have no idea why they have to pay as much as they do. Monaco doesn't. But Monza, Silverstone, Spa, Montreal, Hockenheim/Nurburgring all have to pony up despite being absolutely fundamental to the history of F1. 

A fair arrangement would be F1 taking its fees from the gate, rather than as hosting fees. But that would change the risk profile of the deal and we can't risk Bernie not getting his full paycheque before everyone else, can we?

They pay as much as they do because other circuits pay more. Some of the older traditional places get a discount rate. Places like Russia with government backing get charged more. It was reported that the Russian government paid the largest fee in 2014, a cool £31 million. One can't imagine that the Azerbaijan fee will be small. 

stickyfiddle

Heartfeltdawn said:

stickyfiddle said:

I have to be honest, I have no idea why they have to pay as much as they do. Monaco doesn't. But Monza, Silverstone, Spa, Montreal, Hockenheim/Nurburgring all have to pony up despite being absolutely fundamental to the history of F1. 

A fair arrangement would be F1 taking its fees from the gate, rather than as hosting fees. But that would change the risk profile of the deal and we can't risk Bernie not getting his full paycheque before everyone else, can we?

They pay as much as they do because other circuits pay more. Some of the older traditional places get a discount rate. Places like Russia with government backing get charged more. It was reported that the Russian government paid the largest fee in 2014, a cool £31 million. One can't imagine that the Azerbaijan fee will be small. 

Of course. I understand the economics of it, just wish they'd get together and all tell Bernie to shove it. 

Shame Lotus won't now be joining FI and Sauber in the EU thing.