The F1 thread

AliGorie

haven't read the thread - but on the F1 topic - wtf - heard someone say so 'n so was 4 tenths of a sec faster - or was it 4 hundredths ??? I mean who are these people - what with the other thread on climate change and people considering fractions of a second - that's why we're all doomed

Heartfeltdawn

modellista said:

Does a man with fewer race wins and a points advantage entirely down to luck really "deserve" to win the championship?

I agree it does look like Rosberg's year though - the F1 gods are smiling on him, that's for sure.  But it will be entirely down to Lewis dropping the ball on starts, and the team dropping the ball in preparing his car, rather than any particular racing dominance from Rosberg.  The few racing overtakes he's had to make have been woeful. 

Personally I find Rosberg the least appealing of any of the current drivers, both in personality and driving style, and even his silly rich-boy face.  He can be fast on a clear circuit but I don't believe he's much of a racer.  It's a shame Mercedes have stuck with him all these years.  I'd love to see someone else challenge Hamilton - Hulkenberg would be a good choice.  Now there's a racer who's never had a chance to show his true potential in F1.  Maybe Renault will come good just in time for him?

Yes. A football team for instance might play 38 games a season, win 24 of them and lose the rest, gaining a total of 72 points. A team who plays 38, wins 20 (60 points) and draws 18 of them (18 points) gains 78 points and takes the title. Would you really say the latter team didn't deserve it? 

Lewis dropping the ball at the start is no different really to sticking it in the wall. It's a mistake and mistakes have cost him. 

Heartfeltdawn

HAL9000 said:

Heartfeltdawn said:

...there's still no clarity on what is and what isn't allowed.  

Hey! There's someone here who expects clarity in F1!

They can manage it in WEC running four different classes with some astounding technology, race stewards who actually explain decisions well, and new technical regulations are well thought out. 

TimmyO

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

Just seen Ham's first corner. That was outrageous! How did he get away with that?

He was in the lead but didn't gain an advantage due to the Virtual Safety Car.

I feel sorry for Max .. he's a breath of fresh air for F1 yet the old farts of the sport just seem to want to moan and crush him. If Vettel had shut up and kept his boot to the floor he could have overtaken him on his fresher tyres. Max is my driver of the year.

And what were the Stewards doing? Bullied by Vettel into demoting Max they then demote Vettel. Total joke.

Rosberg deserves the championship based on the number of wins, but he's a fairly boring driver. Max in a Merc vs Lewis would be entertaining. And that's the problem. F1 has lost its entertainment value - too many petty rules.

Max is being a prick. But I get that it's what you get with the type of personality that makes you a major contender as a teenager! 

Agree Rosberg deserves to win based on sheer 1st places. Shame that Hamilton had so many reliability issues earlier in the season. 

The saddest thing of the last 2 seasons though has been watching a talent like Alonso puttering along in that McLaren :-( 

Heartfeltdawn

TimmyO said:

Max is being a prick. But I get that it's what you get with the type of personality that makes you a major contender as a teenager! 

Agree Rosberg deserves to win based on sheer 1st places. Shame that Hamilton had so many reliability issues earlier in the season. 

The saddest thing of the last 2 seasons though has been watching a talent like Alonso puttering along in that McLaren :-( 

Plenty of young drivers from a decently wealthy background who can act like pricks. The difference with Max is that he's a) shown some ability and b) been given the chance in a good car to demonstrate it. Most of the young 'uns get to fuck about at the back of the field. The like of Max Chilton end up falling out of favour and moving to other series. In Max's case, he's demonstrated an ability to regularly whack other cars with an Audi R8 this year...

Modellista

Heartfeltdawn said:

modellista said:

Does a man with fewer race wins and a points advantage entirely down to luck really "deserve" to win the championship?

I agree it does look like Rosberg's year though - the F1 gods are smiling on him, that's for sure.  But it will be entirely down to Lewis dropping the ball on starts, and the team dropping the ball in preparing his car, rather than any particular racing dominance from Rosberg.  The few racing overtakes he's had to make have been woeful. 

Personally I find Rosberg the least appealing of any of the current drivers, both in personality and driving style, and even his silly rich-boy face.  He can be fast on a clear circuit but I don't believe he's much of a racer.  It's a shame Mercedes have stuck with him all these years.  I'd love to see someone else challenge Hamilton - Hulkenberg would be a good choice.  Now there's a racer who's never had a chance to show his true potential in F1.  Maybe Renault will come good just in time for him?

Yes. A football team for instance might play 38 games a season, win 24 of them and lose the rest, gaining a total of 72 points. A team who plays 38, wins 20 (60 points) and draws 18 of them (18 points) gains 78 points and takes the title. Would you really say the latter team didn't deserve it? 

Lewis dropping the ball at the start is no different really to sticking it in the wall. It's a mistake and mistakes have cost him. 

Well, it's coming down to semantics on the definition of "deserve".  Points is points, in that regard sentiment doesn't come into it.

You did erase the line where Fretwired said Rosberg deserves the championship due to his number of wins, and I was responding to that by pointing out he might end up with less wins than Hamilton so the point isn't valid, at least not yet.  I wouldn't really see a championship in terms of deserving or not deserving personally.

Having said that, it's the engine failure in Malaysia that's the real kick in the teeth for Hamilton.  If Rosberg wins by less than what he was gifted in that race, I think it's going to be a real shame for both drivers.  Lewis losing out just on luck, and Rosberg not having the conclusive dominance that he clearly yearns for.  (But in my opinion isn't capable of.) 

Fretwired

modellista said:

Well, it's coming down to semantics on the definition of "deserve".  Points is points, in that regard sentiment doesn't come into it.

You did erase the line where Fretwired said Rosberg deserves the championship due to his number of wins, and I was responding to that by pointing out he might end up with less wins than Hamilton so the point isn't valid, at least not yet.  I wouldn't really see a championship in terms of deserving or not deserving personally.

Having said that, it's the engine failure in Malaysia that's the real kick in the teeth for Hamilton.  If Rosberg wins by less than what he was gifted in that race, I think it's going to be a real shame for both drivers.  Lewis losing out just on luck, and Rosberg not having the conclusive dominance that he clearly yearns for.  (But in my opinion isn't capable of.) 

The championship is decided on points. The point I made was that in winning at least 9 races Rosberg deserves to win. Hamilton could pip him to the number of wins but if Rosberg finishes in the top three the championship is his. If I were Rosberg I'd just play the percentages - I'm sure he'd prefer Hamilton up front than behind him in the last two races.

fretmeister

It's almost like the kids on here don't remember the old scoring system from the 80s. When only the 11 best results from a driver counted.

"Deserves" is a rubbish concept. All drivers are subject to the same rules.

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

It's almost like the kids on here don't remember the old scoring system from the 80s. When only the 11 best results from a driver counted.

"Deserves" is a rubbish concept. All drivers are subject to the same rules.

The 'deserves' is aimed at those (see above) who think Hamilton should have won but had bad luck with his technical issues.

Taking your best results factors in the odd DNF through technical issues.

fretmeister

IIRC the 11 results out of 16 approach was for the drivers only, so the drivers didn't get penalised for technical DNF - but the constructors was all results.

The main problem with it was the stupid driving DNFs that could also be removed.

That system certainly had some merit.

stickyfiddle

I wouldn't mind them knocking off 1 worst result for drivers, as it's very rare to go a whole season without a single DNF for car trouble. More than that and you'd risk giving a dickhead in a reliable car too easy a run. 

I wonder if it would've had any impact on the last decade of titles though. Maybe Vettel's first one, as it was so close, but as much as I'd love Webber's shit Korean GP to be discounted, I think everyone had a DNF at some point, so it wouldn't make any difference. 

Fretwired

stickyfiddle said:

 More than that and you'd risk giving a dickhead in a reliable car too easy a run. 

But Vettel hasn't won any races this year .. ;-)

The real problem is there are only two serious contenders for the drivers championship. In an ideal world there would be three or four guys in the hunt. That's hopefully why Liberty Media has brought Brawn back into F1 to make it more competitive.

Modellista

Fretwired said:

stickyfiddle said:

 More than that and you'd risk giving a dickhead in a reliable car too easy a run. 

But Vettel hasn't won any races this year .. ;-)

The real problem is there are only two serious contenders for the drivers championship. In an ideal world there would be three or four guys in the hunt. That's hopefully why Liberty Media has brought Brawn back into F1 to make it more competitive.

Going back to NA V8s would solve the problem at a stroke.  Brawn's involvement can only be a good thing, but making the cars simpler (therefore cheaper and easier to design) is the only way to have the teams closer in performance, and the most complex aspect by a country mile is the hybrid drivetrain.

And they sound awesome.

Fretwired

modellista said:

Going back to NA V8s would solve the problem at a stroke.  Brawn's involvement can only be a good thing, but making the cars simpler (therefore cheaper and easier to design) is the only way to have the teams closer in performance, and the most complex aspect by a country mile is the hybrid drivetrain.

And they sound awesome.

When Honda quit last time Brawn and Mosley favoured the FIA providing a set of standard components which would allow teams to enter F1 at a lower cost point. Mosley proposed an engine from Cosworth along with a standard chassis and transmission etc. The teams could then tweak - the package would be competitive. Obviously the big teams vetoed it.

Heartfeltdawn

stickyfiddle said:

I wouldn't mind them knocking off 1 worst result for drivers, as it's very rare to go a whole season without a single DNF for car trouble. More than that and you'd risk giving a dickhead in a reliable car too easy a run. 

I wonder if it would've had any impact on the last decade of titles though. Maybe Vettel's first one, as it was so close, but as much as I'd love Webber's shit Korean GP to be discounted, I think everyone had a DNF at some point, so it wouldn't make any difference. 

Had a quick blast with the numbers. Had it been best 11 results per driver in 2008, then Massa would have beaten Hamilton by 92 points to 88. 

Massa had 6 wins to Hamilton's 5 that year. Hammy had one retirement (crash at Canada) versus two for Massa (spin at Malaysia and engine failure in Australia). So fewer wins than his main rival and with less mechanical reliability issues... can't remember the Hammy fans saying that this somehow cheapened his title. 

Heartfeltdawn

modellista said:

Going back to NA V8s would solve the problem at a stroke.  Brawn's involvement can only be a good thing, but making the cars simpler (therefore cheaper and easier to design) is the only way to have the teams closer in performance, and the most complex aspect by a country mile is the hybrid drivetrain.

And they sound awesome.

And so do the modern WEC LMP1 cars. Seeing something move that quickly and quietly is phenomenal. F1 by comparison looks ugly and clunky. 

modellista said:

Well, it's coming down to semantics on the definition of "deserve".  Points is points, in that regard sentiment doesn't come into it.

You did erase the line where Fretwired said Rosberg deserves the championship due to his number of wins, and I was responding to that by pointing out he might end up with less wins than Hamilton so the point isn't valid, at least not yet.  I wouldn't really see a championship in terms of deserving or not deserving personally.

Having said that, it's the engine failure in Malaysia that's the real kick in the teeth for Hamilton.  If Rosberg wins by less than what he was gifted in that race, I think it's going to be a real shame for both drivers.  Lewis losing out just on luck, and Rosberg not having the conclusive dominance that he clearly yearns for.  (But in my opinion isn't capable of.) 

I know, I was using your quoted line just as a point of debate, not going for you personally. However Lewis hasn't lost out on luck, no more so than he won in 2008 by luck courtesy of Massa having an engine failure early season versus superior reliability for Hamilton. When you have cars that are being pushed to their limits, mechanical failure is part of the process. The image of Carlos Sainz breaking down 300 metres from the finish in the 1998 WRC or the Toyota team failing to win at Le Mans this year with only a few minutes to go end up living longer in the memory than some of the races Ferrari won in the Schumacher era for instance. If Rosberg wins, he hasn't won it in a lottery scenario in the manner of a football penalty shootout. You don't become World Champion by being lucky. 

fretmeister

I'm tempted!

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

I'm tempted!

Can you buy them .... :-)

fretmeister

Yes

here: https://www.sunfrog.com/20161025-232154-249675122.html?76824

I've had stuff from them before. Good quality.

Fretwired

fretmeister said:

Yes

here: https://www.sunfrog.com/20161025-232154-249675122.html?76824

I've had stuff from them before. Good quality.

Tempting ....