Just checking please…

DCS222

Hi all,

 another newby bass player here… thinking about lightweight but gigable amplification… And I like the idea of a mini head and then getting a couple of bass cabinets as and when I can afford them, to suit different venues/home use.
But one of the issues I am having is fully understanding the power output. From reading some of the previous comments on other posts, I can’t trust a stated power output because its peak power, rather than RMS.
so looking at the cheap and cheerful 

TC Electronic BAM 200 Ultra-Compact 200W Bass Head

For example, why isn’t the rms clear? What kind of real power will it provide in gigging terms? (It’s a 4 ohm speaker output)

Has anyone used the above? Or have a similar priced alternative recommendation? Would a combo just be a better solution…
other finger wagging or thumbs up recommendations welcomed 

DCS222

Added note- I normally practice in a village hall with my bandmates, no pa… so must be able to stand on its own 2 feet against a drummer. (Rock, blues, pop, punk - not thrash)

mart

There is no number that will tell you how loud an amp is - it simply isn't possible. Yes, the power is a significant factor, if you use a sensible measure, but even then you can get different 200W RMS amps that seem noticeably different in volume. 

Another key factor is the speaker cab you use - some will be much more efficient than others, so will be much louder for the same amp head. If you get a combo then, hopefully, the speaker is chosen to optimize what you get out of the head. But that may mean making the nicest sound, but not the loudest. Or it might just mean bringing the price down, and sacrificing both volume and quality of sound.

The only way is to suck it and see, or trust the word of others. Sadly I don't have experience of that TC head, so I can't comment. I do have their BH250, and with an efficient cab (a Barefaced 1x12), I've found it loud enough, but the cab is a significant component of that set-up.

fretmeister

Unless you have some really sensitive cabs 200W is right at the bottom end of what might be enough to compete with a drummer and the rest of the band.

the TC 500W stuff is only a little more expensive. Or have a look on Basschat in the classifieds for a used bargain.

Funkfingers

Amp power ratings can be deceiving, bass amp ratings, doubly so.

For example, the Fender Rumble 200 only achieves 200w when an extension cabinet is added. On its own, it is more like 125w.

I do have experience of tc electronic bass amplification. The rig I use is similar to the RH450/RS210. Its notional 450w is more than I have ever needed but that is kinda the point. The amp is loud enough and never strained.

fretmeister

The RH450 was only actually 265W but it has a clever compression system to bring it all up.

They should have been honest about it though.

For the OP though - A used Ashdown RM500Evo2 can be found for under £300 if you are patient, and Ashdown's customer service, even for used stuff is amazing.

Always worth keeping an eye out for Thomann gear sales. I got a Tech 21 VT500 for £159 when they were clearing out stock and everyone else still had them at £699!

ICBM

I have an Ibanez Promethean combo - the older one which is 500W into 4 ohms and 250W into 8 ohms (the internal 10" speaker). The combo is *just* loud enough to keep up with the drummer in my band in a rehearsal room, but I don't think the sound would fill even a small venue without an extension cab - but with a big cab, it's huge-sounding even just using the cab alone (ie back to only 250W, but with a lot more speaker efficiency/projection).

So I would say, based on that - 250W into an efficient 15" or maybe a 2x10" is enough, but through a small cab you'll probably need more power.

BUT it's a Class D/SMPS amp, and they're not as loud as comparable-power-rated Class AB/linear power supply (transformer based) amps. Why, I'm not 100% sure, but you'll know it's true when you try both types of amp in a band context.

On the other hand Class AB/linears are heavier and bulkier... take your pick.

DCS222

Thanks for all the input everybody… imagine my surprise when I find myself saving up for “a bit more”… @Funkfingers advice sticks in my head… “more than I have ever needed but that is kinda the point. The amp is loud enough and never strained.”

Funkfingers

Not really my idea. My recollection is that I stole it from a magazine interview with Tony Butler of Big Country. His rule of thumb for stage amplification was four times whatever notional wattage the guitarist uses.

I am acutely aware that the tc electronic "450" is nowhere near as powerful as my old Marshall DBS7400's 400w RMS. 

ICBM

Funkfingers said:

My recollection is that I stole it from a magazine interview with Tony Butler of Big Country. His rule of thumb for stage amplification was four times whatever notional wattage the guitarist uses. 

That's about right.

Funkfingers said:

I am acutely aware that the tc electronic "450" is nowhere near as powerful as my old Marshall DBS7400's 400w RMS. 

Modern amplification is a huge trade-off for portability against performance compared to old-school stuff of even far less power rating.

My old 250W Trace Elliot MkV through an old Marshall 1x15" folded-horn cab with a Celestion Sidewinder was astoundingly loud - the 500W Promethean doesn't even come close through two cabs. Although it has to be said that the Trace *head* alone weighed twice what the Promethean *combo* does. And I have no idea what the Marshall cabinet actually weighed, other than "a lot" - and required two people to lift and an estate car to get it anywhere.

Whistler

200 max or peak power equates to approx. 50w RMS and it is a transistor amp so that is not a loud amp. For louder something like the tc electronic BH800 bass head might do.

I have a BAM200 and like it for a few reasons:
 - it is so small, as you can see with my mobile on top of it, it easily fits in my gig bag,
 - the headphone socket is great for silent practising at home,
 - the XLR out on the back sends a feed to a mixing desk (which is what I use it for mostly) and the desk can boost the signal however the sound engineer wants,
 - the 4ohm socket I have not yet used but is there should I go somewhere where there is a bass cabinet,
 - I also use it with my ordinary 6-string guitars, this weekend with a Strat and 3 pedals.

Edit: I forgot to add that the article New TC BAM200 micro head is worth reading.

wrinkleygit

I’ve been using a BAM200 for about 18 months or so, after trying one at a SW Bass Bash, linked to a 12” cab at 8ohms it delivers about 150w output, in terms of volume it’s about as loud as my old school SWR Workingmans combo, which is plenty for my needs.
  If you’re in a Motörhead tribute band I would look at something else, if you’re in a trio with a moderate drummer you could be ok with a decent cab, 
  For the money I think they are hard to fault.

Funkfingers

ICBM said:

My old 250W Trace Elliot MkV through an old Marshall 1x15" folded-horn cab with a Celestion Sidewinder was astoundingly loud.

A notorious gear flipper in my town has a Trace-Elliot GP7 2x10 combo. I live in hopes that he will arbitrarily ditch it one day. I really ought to get first dibs on it.

Stand that on top of a 1x15 or 1x18 and I'll be happy to gig at larger venues.

Paul_C

DCS222 said:

Added note- I normally practice in a village hall with my bandmates, no pa… so must be able to stand on its own 2 feet against a drummer. (Rock, blues, pop, punk - not thrash)

If the village hall has a wooden floor, or you regularly play on hollow stages an isolation platform is worth considering.

DCS222

That’sa new one to me… we’ll look into it

DCS222

Paul_C said:

DCS222 said:

Added note- I normally practice in a village hall with my bandmates, no pa… so must be able to stand on its own 2 feet against a drummer. (Rock, blues, pop, punk - not thrash)

If the village hall has a wooden floor, or you regularly play on hollow stages an isolation platform is worth considering.

You made me have a think and a read. The village hall we use has a tendency for bass resonance, so we used to stick the old bass players amp on the concrete hearth lintel, which helped.

but this little home research article suggests air pressure waves being more troublesome than direct floor / cabinet contact for resonance issues with non solid floors. There a handy bit of evidence for using a couple of layers of rubberised draw liner between cab and amp (significant vibration reduction)

https://www.bassgearmag.com/submit-article-bass-amplifier-isolation/