Gigging and sound trouble...

Bod

I'm in a gigging covers band, and I'm using a Blackstar HT5 head into a Line 6 Flextone III open-backed extension cab with the speaker swapped out for a Celestion Hot 100.

The drummer plays an e-kit, so stage levels are good, and the cab is miked up through the PA.  The channel volume rarely reaches halfway, but I find that the sound quickly becomes fairly harsh and middly, with no perceptible bass from my position on stage, about 6 feet in front of the cab, which is on a stand projecting towards head height.  At home at low volumes there's no problem at all and the bass response is good, potentially because it's positioned against a wall.

I'm not sure where to go to improve the situation.  Is it amp headroom, the cab (maybe closed back would be better), or the speaker?  I've got my eye on the Harley Benton V30 2x12, but not sure that this might be overkill.  

All suggestions welcome.

ICBM

It's probably the amp - that's one of the typical results of pushing a valve power stage too hard. Although the cabinet will not help, even with a better speaker.

But before you replace it, try experimenting with the cab: cover the back with something, possibly thick cardboard would be enough, although you may need something stiffer - tape it on to make a temporary closed back. Also don't point it at your head - set horizontally at about waist height or slightly above seems to sound the best to me, and avoids being so harsh/beamy - it also seems to give a better correlation with the out-front sound.

A more efficient, deeper-sounding speaker might help too - the Hot 100 is fairy midrangy. NOT a V30! That will probably be worse, although it is more efficient. A G12H-30, G12H-75 Creamback, Classic Lead 80 or G12K-100 would be better (in order of vintage to modern type tone) or possibly something more esoteric (although very expensive!) like a Gold or a Jensen Blackbird.

The HB 2x12" with V30s is probably the wrong choice, a lot of people find them quite middy. I would maybe try just a slightly oversized better quality 1x12", like a Montage. I've got one of those at the moment, it's really quite nice - and it has a removable panel so you can make it open or closed. Or possibly a ported one - they have a lot more bass response usually.

Voxman

Before you start looking at expensive speaker upgrades that may not significantly resolve the problem,  I strongly recommend two things to try - and they can even be used together.  

1. A simple 7-band EQ - likely to be best in the FX loop ratherv than direct.  The EQ will allow you to shape your tone much better than just the amps onboard EQ. You don't need to spend a fortune - a £25 Behringer EQ700 works just as well as a Boss GE7 costing three times as much.

2. A BBE Sonic Stomp Maximiser (again, likely to be best in the FX loop) - see my post 25/9/14 inc explanation/video demos here: 

http://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/24080/

Both can be used together (when the BBESSM should be after the EQ) - the effect of either unit is like taking off a blanket covering your amp you never knew you had. The EQ allows massive EQ control so that you can tighten up the bottom end whilst still retaining good mids and top end or you can cut/raise mids etc.

I use both in the FX loop of my Vox Valvetronix rig and I always use an EQ and/or BBESSM with my valve rig and conventional pedal board - wouldn't gig without them!  

I'd start off with the EQ because its effect is the most dramatic, it's inexpensive and it gives you huge tone shaping options. A 'W' shape is a good starting point - the 800Hz in the middle is particularly dramatic on the mids allowing you to boost or scoop them, with bottom & highs emphasised too. Also, in the FX loop the EQ level can (typically) give you up to a 15dB boost too. Outside the FX loop ie direct, you might find the EQ acts like a gain boost adding distortion when you raise the level setting.  In the FX loop this should stay clean throughout.  

The best stomp EQ IMHO is the NXR-M108 which is a ten-band unit and has both level & gain controls - but these are typically £110 - too much for an experiment I think, but a good choice if you love the EQ and want to 'move up' at some time. 

Let me know how you get on?

martinw

ICBM said:

It's probably the amp - that's one of the typical results of pushing a valve power stage too hard. Although the cabinet will not help, even with a better speaker.

Agreed.

Try a better amp. You need one that can supply the right sound at gig volume on it's own, if you're expecting your backline to provide your stage sound.

If you can get a good sound out of the HT5 at home levels, then you need to leave it there and use monitoring to get a good sound live.

Cirrus

Open backed cabs are shit at projecting bass. It's just the physics of it thanks to cancellation from the rear becoming increasingly apparent as you move further from the cab. And a 5 watt amp is hardly going to be pushing the thump.

Danny1969

I use an HT5 with an open back 1 x 12 cab and I don't have any problems. Last night the dep guitarist covering for my normal colleague turned up with an HT5 and 1 x 12" as well and he sounded great. Are you mic'ed up ? if so try putting the amp on the floor, remember high mid \ top frequencies are very directional, if you point the thing at your ears it probably won't sound great

Bod

Thanks for the replies, there's plenty to be thinking about there.  I think I'll start with closing the back, and with the EQ.  My budget can't stretch to replacing the amp or cab just yet, so I'll try the cheaper options first.

Part of the trouble is that we rarely rehearse at full volume.  As we use an e-kit we tend to practice with headphones and I just use an iPad for that.  As a result I don't get a regular opportunity to crank up and tweak.  It's great for learning stuff, but no good for getting the sound right.

Thanks all for taking the trouble to reply!

ecc83

I don't agree!

That you need a "better" amp! I DO think you need a bigger one! It is just basic physics that if you push an amp too hard the first things that go are cleans and low frequencies.

So, change the HT-5 over to a 50watter or slave it to a 100watt solid state PA. If you want to stay with the Brand (and why would you not??) there are plenty of gut busters in the range.

Dave.

Cirrus

As a technical dude ecc I think it's only apt that your posts are so well 'biased'. Ba-boom tish.

ecc83

Cirrus said:

As a technical dude ecc I think it's only apt that your posts are so well 'biased'. Ba-boom tish.

Hah! Well, if the OP has the basic sound he wants but just more of it, best way is to "stay in house!

Dave.

ICBM

ecc83 said:

I don't agree!

That you need a "better" amp! I DO think you need a bigger one! It is just basic physics that if you push an amp too hard the first things that go are cleans and low frequencies.

I would also re-state the importance of the speaker. The Hot 100 is only 97dB, so if you replaced it with (say) a G12K-100 - 100dB - that would automatically give you the same increase in volume as doubling the power of the amp. Not only that, the G12K-100 has a deeper, brighter, cleaner and 'bigger' tone than the Hot 100 as well. So if what you're getting is *close* to enough, it's a lot cheaper to replace the speaker than the amp. The G12K-100 also happens to be the cheapest 100dB speaker Celestion make, I think.

Also don't be swayed by the sensitivity ratings of some other manufacturers, who are often optimistic to the tune of about 3dB compared to Celestion. I've never come across any 'equivalent' which claims that sort of sensitivity advantage which is actually louder than the Celestion.

If that's not enough and you want to keep as close to the same sound as possible with a bigger amp, the obvious choice is the HT-20 - but having replaced the speaker first is then not a bad thing.

ESBlonde

Before you spend any money, what mic are you using and where is it placed? The position of the mic makes all the difference in the world, a typical 'cone' loudspeaker beams treble and mid as a concentrated centre of the cone thing but produces a warmer bassier tone nearer the edge of the cone. So while you play have someone move the mic about in relation to the cone and also move it back a few inches. You will notice drastic changes to the PA sound just by doing this, find the sound you like and place the mic there. Also don't have your head in that direct concentrated beam of treble as someone else said above. Place the speaker firing in the small of your back so you can hear everyone else but still plenty of yourself and it will sound 'warmer'.
 

newi123

Personally I hate amps on stands and pointing at me. 

How do you play at home - is the amp on the floor or pointing directly at you? You hear it very differently depending where you are positioned relative to the speaker. I also firmly believe that you get better bass response with the cab on the ground - although with a small wattage amp that might make very little difference I guess. When I could still be bothered to carry a 4x12 I never had one with wheels - again, for me it lost the bass response.

I think I`d try the amp on the floor before assuming that your basic sound needs updating - especially if you are happy with the sound at home and the drummer has an e kit, so your not trying to compete with an acoustic drum kit with a small amp.

 

Bod

I'm resurrecting this thread to report back with my findings. Tonight was the first time I've had my amp at close to gig volume since making some changes.

I closed up the back of the cab using some old Ikea shelving and took the advice of @Voxman and bought a Behringer EQ700, which I placed in the loop with a slight bass boost.  I also changed the position of the amp stand so it wasn't pointing directly at me.

It's made a world of difference and I was very happy in rehearsals tonight.  I'd been thinking of replacing the HT5 with a Jet City JCA22H (when they're finally back in stock), but the HT5 sounded great tonight, so it's made me reconsider.

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

Voxman

@Bod - thanks for reporting back and really glad that you're now pleased with your amp tone and like the difference with an EQ in the FX loop.

ecc83

Bod said:

I'm resurrecting this thread to report back with my findings. Tonight was the first time I've had my amp at close to gig volume since making some changes.

I closed up the back of the cab using some old Ikea shelving and took the advice of @Voxman and bought a Behringer EQ700, which I placed in the loop with a slight bass boost.  I also changed the position of the amp stand so it wasn't pointing directly at me.

It's made a world of difference and I was very happy in rehearsals tonight.  I'd been thinking of replacing the HT5 with a Jet City JCA22H (when they're finally back in stock), but the HT5 sounded great tonight, so it's made me reconsider.

Thanks everybody for your suggestions!

Someone reading that in isolation might think you had closed off the cab of an HT-5 combo?

Don't of course! It was however interesting when we sealed up as well as we could an HT-60 Stage and found that the internal temperature stabilized at only few degrees hotter than the open case.

It seems the radiation from the cab and external convection is pretty much enough to keep things safe?

Dave.

PolarityMan

I noticed on a couple of recent gig videos that when we're not going through the PA the sound out front can change a bit when people move in front of their amps, I guess this would also be true to a lesser extent for the bass drum too. Any thoughts on reducing this phenomena?

Danny1969

Mid and higher frequencies are directional so you will always hear the change when people move in front of the speaker. 

The answer is always have the amps mic'ed up no matter how small the gig and make sure the PA speakers are above head height of even tall people as you get the same  effect otherwise when someone stands in front of a PA speaker

Ideal situation for Front of House mix is small cab low on floor mic'ed up or direct linked via Radial or similar  and then monitored with in ears by performer but  there's cost involved and it's a more complicated setup

Cabicular

Don't forget how quickly your ears get tired as well
Record it and see if it ACTUALLY changes

BigMonka

If you're micing up the amp is better to have it in front of you (facing you) rather than behind so that it's not providing too much sound to the audience and giving phase/delay issues with the front of house?

Danny1969

BigMonka said:

If you're micing up the amp is better to have it in front of you (facing you) rather than behind so that it's not providing too much sound to the audience and giving phase/delay issues with the front of house?

Unless you have an amp shaped like a stage monitor it's gonna look a bit strange specially if you use a 4 x 12"  :~0

Plus the audience then have to listen to the rear of your cab and that's not gonna be a great sound. That's what I hate about bands using wedge monitors in small venues, from an audience perspective they sound awful as the audience only hears the rear of them

Nice idea in principle though, the Eagles used to have their amps almost offstage and facing away for some of the reasons you mention