Yamaha LS6 convert

Smellyfingers

Further to my previous thread about reasonably priced sub  £500 parlour guitars, I tried one of these in the Yamaha shop and had to have it on the spot, it was so good I was worried it might be a fluke.

OK it is a bit to big to be an actual parlour and it was £600. But at the risk of sounding money obsessed, it feels and sounds like a > £1000 instrument

Having tried many boutique instruments like Santa Cruz, Custom Martins etc , I think you would need to posess Claptonesque levels of discernment to be overly concerned with the tonal differences between those and the L S6. 

GoFish

Yeah those Yammies are pretty, pretty nice.

You my or may not be interested to know that the differences in sound and feel between the 6 and the 16 are minimal in the ones I've tried. IME Yamaha don't go in for hobbling the lower models to make the higher ones seem "value added".

DavidR

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

Soupman

Well done @Smellyfingers ! I think it's great when someone hits on 'the one' like that. Glad you love it. 

Smellyfingers

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

But they seem to have a weird pricing policy, for instance of every retailer in the UK( including the Yamaha shop) is selling the LS6 model for around £650. Except for Peach guitars which is selling them £479.

it does not really seem to make sense commercially, because obviously it seems to suggest that most retailers are overpricing the guitar.

DavidR

That's the market! Rumour has it Covid was a busy time for stockists but now not so much. Big stores like Peach might be lowering prices to generate cahflow. A good time to buy?

Personally I never begrudge anyone making a reasonable profit. Yamaha shows it can be done without extortionate prices.

Other, especially some US brands, should take note.

Congrats on your new LS6 btw.

:-)

Smellyfingers

Thanks @DavidR, but I am now such a big fan of Yamaha that more insane (for me)GAS beckons - what is the is FG5 like?

DavidR

Very nice. Less light than cheaper FG's but still quite light. Sitka top, Mahogany B&S. FG's are dreadnoughts of course and so FG5 very much an option as a mid range dread for about £1K. Maybe an alternative for a D18 imho. Got mine in 2020 for £980. Very pleased with it. A criticism of cheaper dreadnoughts can be that they lack a mid range but the FG5 has good tone generally.

I don't know if you can still get FG5's. Yamaha London would tell you. And probably try and sell you the new FG9 which is £3K'ish. FG's have not previously been that expensive.

The FG 830 is a little more delicate but, with a few simple mods is a carefree sort of an instrument.

Wish I had had all these choices when I was younger!

Whitecat

Smellyfingers said:

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

But they seem to have a weird pricing policy, for instance of every retailer in the UK( including the Yamaha shop) is selling the LS6 model for around £650. Except for Peach guitars which is selling them £479.

it does not really seem to make sense commercially, because obviously it seems to suggest that most retailers are overpricing the guitar.

Lots of retailers aren't holding stock... Yamaha stuff is often drop-shipped from the Yamaha warehouse in Milton Keynes, so they haven't got anything to lose by not discounting.

Smellyfingers

Whitecat said:

Smellyfingers said:

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

But they seem to have a weird pricing policy, for instance of every retailer in the UK( including the Yamaha shop) is selling the LS6 model for around £650. Except for Peach guitars which is selling them £479.

it does not really seem to make sense commercially, because obviously it seems to suggest that most retailers are overpricing the guitar.

Lots of retailers aren't holding stock... Yamaha stuff is often drop-shipped from the Yamaha warehouse in Milton Keynes, so they haven't got anything to lose by not discounting.

I know it is not tangible, but I think the perception of consistent pricing is quite important for Guitar brands.

To have one retailer selling a model much cheaper than the others devalues the perceived quality and value of money of the product itself.

I think Martin Co has twigged this, which maybe why they can charge eye watering prices for their 
Guitars.

Whitecat

Smellyfingers said:

Whitecat said:

Smellyfingers said:

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

But they seem to have a weird pricing policy, for instance of every retailer in the UK( including the Yamaha shop) is selling the LS6 model for around £650. Except for Peach guitars which is selling them £479.

it does not really seem to make sense commercially, because obviously it seems to suggest that most retailers are overpricing the guitar.

Lots of retailers aren't holding stock... Yamaha stuff is often drop-shipped from the Yamaha warehouse in Milton Keynes, so they haven't got anything to lose by not discounting.

I know it is not tangible, but I think the perception of consistent pricing is quite important for Guitar brands.

To have one retailer selling a model much cheaper than the others devalues the perceived quality and value of money of the product itself.

I think Martin Co has twigged this, which maybe why they can charge eye watering prices for their 
Guitars.

Right, but then you skirt along the lines of minimum advertised pricing, which stifles competition and is illegal in the UK and the EU (but not in the States)... Fender got a massive fine here for doing just that if you recall - millions.

Smellyfingers

Whitecat said:

Smellyfingers said:

Whitecat said:

Smellyfingers said:

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

But they seem to have a weird pricing policy, for instance of every retailer in the UK( including the Yamaha shop) is selling the LS6 model for around £650. Except for Peach guitars which is selling them £479.

it does not really seem to make sense commercially, because obviously it seems to suggest that most retailers are overpricing the guitar.

Lots of retailers aren't holding stock... Yamaha stuff is often drop-shipped from the Yamaha warehouse in Milton Keynes, so they haven't got anything to lose by not discounting.

I know it is not tangible, but I think the perception of consistent pricing is quite important for Guitar brands.

To have one retailer selling a model much cheaper than the others devalues the perceived quality and value of money of the product itself.

I think Martin Co has twigged this, which maybe why they can charge eye watering prices for their 
Guitars.

Right, but then you skirt along the lines of minimum advertised pricing, which stifles competition and is illegal in the UK and the EU (but not in the States)... Fender got a massive fine here for doing just that if you recall - millions.

Interesting, so are you saying that Martin may be of interest to the authorities?

Pricing for their flagship models seems very consistent between retailers..

Whitecat

Smellyfingers said:

Whitecat said:

Smellyfingers said:

Whitecat said:

Smellyfingers said:

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

But they seem to have a weird pricing policy, for instance of every retailer in the UK( including the Yamaha shop) is selling the LS6 model for around £650. Except for Peach guitars which is selling them £479.

it does not really seem to make sense commercially, because obviously it seems to suggest that most retailers are overpricing the guitar.

Lots of retailers aren't holding stock... Yamaha stuff is often drop-shipped from the Yamaha warehouse in Milton Keynes, so they haven't got anything to lose by not discounting.

I know it is not tangible, but I think the perception of consistent pricing is quite important for Guitar brands.

To have one retailer selling a model much cheaper than the others devalues the perceived quality and value of money of the product itself.

I think Martin Co has twigged this, which maybe why they can charge eye watering prices for their 
Guitars.

Right, but then you skirt along the lines of minimum advertised pricing, which stifles competition and is illegal in the UK and the EU (but not in the States)... Fender got a massive fine here for doing just that if you recall - millions.

Interesting, so are you saying that Martin may be of interest to the authorities?

Pricing for their flagship models seems very consistent between retailers..

You'd probably need a whistleblower to prove it, but if the prices are literally never discounted anywhere, then yeah, that's pretty suss. They do enforce MAP in the States, and loads of companies that do that certainly try it on here. Fender were not the only ones, they were just the largest to get caught.

GoFish

I thought that Yamaha were in the process of raising prices somewhat, both as part of a broader strategy of stramlining ranges and due to the exchange rate. Similar raises or small product tweaks (cheaper specs) occured in basses and keyboards. The very sluggish market has caught them between the two prices so I put the price differences down to this.

BillDL

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

@GoFish mentioned the possibility / probability of Yamaha increasing their prices.  I think that Yamaha may have fallen into a trap of "not expensive enough to be taken seriously" by many consumers, and importantly by their peers and their peers' influencers.  You will regularly see Yamaha being included in "the best sub-£500 acoustic guitars", but when you go above that it is less common to see them in top-10 type lists, and this definitely isn't because they are not as good as many of the short-listed guitars with brand names that don't make sub-£500 guitars.  I think it's due to the perception of what is "factory made" vs guitar brands that like us to believe that they are more "hand crafted" than the Yamaha brand might infer.

I really like Yamaha acoustics, and the LS6 is a lovely guitar to play.  Great choice and I'm happy for you.

Smellyfingers

BillDL said:

DavidR said:

If, strangely, I could only buy acoustics from one company it would be Yamaha. Currently have FG830 and FG5.

Not that loads of other companies don't make great guitars but Yamaha's combination of quality, tone and value would make them my winner.

@GoFish mentioned the possibility / probability of Yamaha increasing their prices.  I think that Yamaha may have fallen into a trap of "not expensive enough to be taken seriously" by many consumers, and importantly by their peers and their peers' influencers.  You will regularly see Yamaha being included in "the best sub-£500 acoustic guitars", but when you go above that it is less common to see them in top-10 type lists, and this definitely isn't because they are not as good as many of the short-listed guitars with brand names that don't make sub-£500 guitars.  I think it's due to the perception of what is "factory made" vs guitar brands that like us to believe that they are more "hand crafted" than the Yamaha brand might infer.

I really like Yamaha acoustics, and the LS6 is a lovely guitar to play.  Great choice and I'm happy for you.

I think you have very clearly encapsulated the idiocy/ insanity that many  guitar buyers suffer from………They don’t concentrate properly for a few minutes , in shop, on the tone and sustain quality of the instrument, instead being drawn in by the magic dust of history based marketing, 

I am just as guilty,  because in the end I decided the minimum price of an LS6 was just too suspiciously low to explain the quality of the tone and Bling of the instrument and traded it for the(mainly Japanese made) Yamaha LG 5 at @DavidR’s suggestion.

I am currently very happy with its tone and playability of this guitar , and delighted that the shop’s price was the lowest available worldwide. But  I now have niggling feeling that there may be something amiss with an all solid wood MiJ acoustic with Waverley equivalent quality tuners, that is  priced at only £1150.

Where’s the shortcut compared with a circa £3000 D18, for example? Could the FG5have non wood/ plasticated internal bracing for instance? Or might it have produced mainly by a robot and/or a group of trained monkeys?

All intriguing questions.

GoFish

I find that trained monkeys do good work. ... if they're trained in Japan. Miles ahead of those trained in Indonesia and don't get me started on the States - it's like there's an institutional loss of memory on how to train a monkey to work well and not just fast.

Smellyfingers

GoFish said:

I find that trained monkeys do good work. ... if they're trained in Japan. Miles ahead of those trained in Indonesia and don't get me started on the States - it's like there's an institutional loss of memory on how to train a monkey to work well and not just fast.

I agree the US is probably total crap at monkey training, but  would’nt the German trained monkeys be the most experienced and resilient? Or do they not use non-humans in their factories?

GoFish

Their non-humans are ARLs (Artificial Robot Luthier). They've moved on from live monkey training. I've heard good things about consistency but not tried any myself, certainly not acoustic guitars.

Smellyfingers

https://www.siccasguitars.com/guitar/hanika-guitars/

Smellyfingers

Smellyfingers said:

https://www.siccasguitars.com/guitar/hanika-guitars/

Could these classical guitars be made by or with the help of a ‘Artificial Robot Luthier’ - wow  - I had never even heard of these!

They claim to be ‘ unmistakable’ which to me means they are 100% consistent in build quality, and reassuringly  all priced at over £1000.

Hanika guitars might beg the question, however, as to whether advanced robots can ever be better than mere human beings at acoustic luthiery.