School guitar lessons - recommended book

soma1975

HI all,

My 6 year old who is crazy about music just had his first guitar lesson. The teacher who seems very nice (hello if you're on here!) just sent me a link to a music book they are going to work to which is this.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Guitarists-Way-Peter-Nuttall-Whitworth/dp/0708021018



I had a look and 

1) It is all notation and no tablature or chord boxes or anything else to ease a kid into it.
2) It's all 'Ukraine Folk Song' and 'Bugle Calls' and no actual songs he would ever know

Is this a standard text or something because I worry there is nothing more guaranteed to turn my Beatles-obsessed kid off learning the instrument than a bunch of notation in order to learn 'Spanish Polka #2'.

Can you lovely teachers please put my mind at ease? 

Brad

I’m not a fan of this book at all (in fact, a little part of me dies inside every time I see it  ) however, just to play devil’s advocate…

1. If your son was learning violin, trumpet, recorder or practically any other instrument, it is highly likely he wouldn’t be learning anything he would know on those instruments anyway. Should the guitar be an exception? 

2. What’s wrong with only notation? If your son was learning violin, trumpet, recorder or practically any other instrument, it is highly likely he would be learning notation from the start. Should the guitar be an exception?

Further to that point, perhaps if that’s the starting point, your son won’t know any different and will be absolutely fine with it. Thus, developing transferable musical skills that will serve him very well in the future. 

3. If his teacher is worth anything, they’ll make the material in the book fun and engaging. The sense of achievement in learning a piece of music and playing it well, should override what the actual piece is. 

4. There is an incremental, structured flow in the book. It will give your son a sense of progression, something to work towards and achievement. 

5. Six is young for starting the guitar, he’s got the rest of his life to learn and play the things he’s into. Give this a year and then see where he’s at. 

We often (subconsciously) project our issues on others, so if you have a positive approach towards this book, I’m sure your son will have a positive learning experience with it. 

soma1975

He's not learning violin, trumpet, reorder or practically any other instrument for precisely this reason

Teacher seems good but knowing my son, the fact he won't be able to play the While My Guitar Gently Weeps solo by lesson 2 is enough of a mental setback for him anyway, allied to the physical difficulties of getting to grips with it and the need for practice, I would just like to have as many barriers to enjoying it removed as possible and it really seems like there's more fun ways to begin. 

Also if he was learning TAB I could do stuff with him!

But obviously I defer to the people that do it for a living.  

mrkb

Why don’t you teach him some easy Beatles riffs/ note progressions as well as him having lessons? 

My son started classical lessons at 7 and it was all note reading. I used to sit in on the lessons and started trying to note read as well. He picked it up much quicker than I did and it was very useful (ie essential) when he joined the senior school music groups.

soma1975

Good idea. 

I think in my head the teacher was going to do all the depressing stuff like teaching him to fret cleanly and then I could teach him songs. 

soma1975

And thanks @Brad the more I think about what you said the more I realise I should just let it be its own thing away from his stated aim of being a rock legend. There's plenty of time for that down the line.

DefaultM

See how he reacts to it. My dad went to buy me an acoustic when I was about 8. The guy in the shop told him that kids didn't want acoustic, they wanted electric so they could be like Oasis.
He got me the electric guitar, but then a book of stuff like Michael Row The Boat Ashore and I lost interest pretty quick. I didn't play guitar again until I was maybe 13, but I think if I'd been shown the stuff I liked (Oasis, Beatles and The Smiths) I'd have stuck with it.

Brad

soma1975 said:

And thanks @Brad the more I think about what you said the more I realise I should just let it be its own thing away from his stated aim of being a rock legend. There's plenty of time for that down the line.

No probs. It’s a tough one, and I actually really do get where you’re coming from. When I get a new student that’s been learning from The Guitarist’s Way, my heart sinks  If the student wants to pursue classical guitar, then it's a great starting point I suppose, but otherwise...

To quote Meatloaf, @mrkb took the words right out of my mouth. Just teach him some things yourself, either alongside or instead of lessons (even for the short term) as going off what you say about your son (you know him best after all), I'd question the wisdom of him having lessons right now, particularly being so young still.

FWIW, I started teaching my son when he was 6. I teach 5 days a week and relentlessly gig, so the last thing I want to do is work on my own shit, never mind teach my own kids when home is supposed to be down time for us all. Whilst he picked things up really well, the father/son dynamic meant it best that I knock it on the head.

Fast forward a year and he randomly asks to play guitar again and that year made all the difference in his mental approach to learning, his capacity to doing it and his tolerance for being taught by his old man he made huge strides in a short space of time (in part due to planting the seeds a year earlier). It's not structured, I never force it and sometimes it can be as little as 5 mins.  

I suggested the idea of learning to read notation (after he saw me working with notation for whatever reason), and that was something that again he asked to try at a later date, because I framed it in a positive way and approached it in a way he could digest, so he was very receptive to it. But I find how a person's brain is wired makes a difference. Those mathematically inclined always pick it up pretty quickly, I'm not one of those so I understand the reservations but it really isn't something to fear. Your son may very well take to it, but again you know him best.

I'd just see how it goes, keep the expectations off and as you say let it be its own thing. If he isn't enjoying the lessons because of the book in question, there are plenty of guitar tutors out there that do approach it in the manner you'd be hoping they would Good luck!

soma1975

Brad said:

soma1975 said:

And thanks @Brad the more I think about what you said the more I realise I should just let it be its own thing away from his stated aim of being a rock legend. There's plenty of time for that down the line.

No probs. It’s a tough one, and I actually really do get where you’re coming from. When I get a new student that’s been learning from The Guitarist’s Way, my heart sinks  If the student wants to pursue classical guitar, then it's a great starting point I suppose, but otherwise...

To quote Meatloaf, @mrkb took the words right out of my mouth. Just teach him some things yourself, either alongside or instead of lessons (even for the short term) as going off what you say about your son (you know him best after all), I'd question the wisdom of him having lessons right now, particularly being so young still.

Thing is he writes songs incessantly. Plays guitar and piano incessantly. Sings incessantly. He just can't make them make a melody yet (although I showed him some cheats on the piano).

He is about music and making music 24/7, so it absolutely makes sense to try to give him the tools to do what it is he wants to do. 

He enjoyed lesson 1 so that is a start. Will report back as we go on. 

soma1975

DefaultM said:

See how he reacts to it. My dad went to buy me an acoustic when I was about 8. The guy in the shop told him that kids didn't want acoustic, they wanted electric so they could be like Oasis.
He got me the electric guitar, but then a book of stuff like Michael Row The Boat Ashore and I lost interest pretty quick. I didn't play guitar again until I was maybe 13, but I think if I'd been shown the stuff I liked (Oasis, Beatles and The Smiths) I'd have stuck with it.

I still just let him on my strat and marshall with a the fuzz face on so he can enjoy the more visceral noisemaking side of it all. 

Brad

soma1975 said:

Brad said:

soma1975 said:

And thanks @Brad the more I think about what you said the more I realise I should just let it be its own thing away from his stated aim of being a rock legend. There's plenty of time for that down the line.

No probs. It’s a tough one, and I actually really do get where you’re coming from. When I get a new student that’s been learning from The Guitarist’s Way, my heart sinks  If the student wants to pursue classical guitar, then it's a great starting point I suppose, but otherwise...

To quote Meatloaf, @mrkb took the words right out of my mouth. Just teach him some things yourself, either alongside or instead of lessons (even for the short term) as going off what you say about your son (you know him best after all), I'd question the wisdom of him having lessons right now, particularly being so young still.

Thing is he writes songs incessantly. Plays guitar and piano incessantly. Sings incessantly. He just can't make them make a melody yet (although I showed him some cheats on the piano).

He is about music and making music 24/7, so it absolutely makes sense to try to give him the tools to do what it is he wants to do. 

He enjoyed lesson 1 so that is a start. Will report back as we go on. 

And that’s the most important thing. 

If he’s happy having fun and making noise then that’s great, run with it. Don’t forget though, he’s 6 and whilst that doesn’t mean to say you shouldn’t look to support him etc from experience, too much can be expected from kids that age. Just cultivate that love of music, the rest will come in time.

soma1975

If he can't play Eugene's Trick Bag by lesson 4 he gets the hose!

Supportact

I had that book when I started! That was the 80s so quite surprising it's still going.

I found it ok at the time but I learned classical first, and quite enjoyed 'Spanish Polka #2' (I was a weird kid). I did also at some stage have informal lessons with a guy who showed me some chords and a few pop/rock songs. 

In retrospect I am glad that I got taught musical notation at a young age because it's the kind of thing you absorb much easier as a child, I think. Having that embedded has proved useful in the long run. 

I think everyone is different though and as others have said at that age enjoyment is the most important thing. 

Lestratcaster

I used that book too when I took one term of lessons at school. Hated it. Wrong approach for me as it wasn't anything I wanted to play.

I think teachers who rely on books or a syllabus to base their lesson structures off can't be bothered to put any prep work in for their learners. But that's private lessons.

If its for school stuff at least make it contemporary and engaging, current songs in the charts etc. That stuff is just outdated and doesn't relate to any modern kids.

Benm39

Why is it everytime I read the word polka I'm thinking Robin Williams in Gooooooooooood Morning Vietnam...

I grew up learning pretty strict classical piano which mostly I liked and got on with,  but I loved the times my uncle Geoff would visit and bash out boogie woogie and show me things like 12 bar blues and stride stuff...

Having the musical notation and theory basis early in can be great but ultimately it's about making music.  If I'd spent more time trying to play in a band, than being technically proficient at playing limited classical grades based repertoire then I'd probably have... 

DavidR

Big debate about standard notation vs. tablature for guitar.

As a player now I find scores which have both are the best but if I was teaching a child I would always teach them standard notation. Many do not realise that standard notation for guitar is not standard. Not only is it written one octave higher than it sounds but It will include instructions on fingering, both Rt hand (pima) and left (1234), occasionally, instruction on what string to play a note on (circled numbers) and advice about dynamics and phrasing.

But more importantly, if you're going to learn standard notation, for guitar or any instrument, it's best to learn it as a child. I learnt notation when I was in my late 50's and frankly I'm never going to be as good as my peers who learnt as children and for whom it is just second nature. Like reading.

There are weaknesses to standard notation. It is very much for classical players and some features of other guitar traditions are left out. Acoustic players use their thumb to play the bottom E string all the time but this is frowned on in classical technique - even if you could do it across such a wide neck.

As regards which books to use, I would advise anyone learning the instrument to find a good teacher in their area who come recommended and then use whatever books the ABRSM (The Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music) are using at that time. If you can afford to do that. If not, try and get their books and teach yourself.

When I was young we couldn't afford lessons and so I taught myself from imported American Blues and Ragtime books. I thought tabs were normal for the guitar! You can become a great player with just tabs, or even no tabs, but as regards teaching it's definitely not the counsel of perfection.

soma1975

I taught myself from guitar mags and playing along to tapes. 

I feel tab gets you up and running way faster as it is telling you the string, the fret and the action. You don't need to interpret the notation. The boy is inspired by people rocking out, not Paco De Lucia (yet) and so I feel removing any obstructions to maintaining that enthusiasm is my job, hence the thread.

Appreciate the insight though. 

CaseOfAce

I just had a look at the samples - it got me playing the treble clef German song thing. Like riding a bike you never forget once you can do it.
 (embarassingly I had to look up what a free stroke was in the text below!! I could sorta guess what it was .. I've never played a rest stroke in my entire guitar playing life).

I learnt standard notation on guitar in my mid-twenties. It's sorta useful... but not essential to me for guitar (I guess me and Metheny agree to disagree  ) - but as always depends what you are going to be doing? There can't be many of us who are doing West End pit work or depping at Ronnie Scotts?
I've mainly used the skill in hindsight when the tab in a Guitar Techniques mag piece sounds wrong and checked it against the note above to confirm it's a misprint).

When I was a nipper I bought the Russ Shipton Complete Guitar Player books - but that was more because my teacher at the time told me to get them.
In hindsight I've come to think they were totally wasted on me - but at that age you have the attention span of a gnat.
Age 10 I had no idea who John Denver was or what Leaving On a Jet Plane sounded like (this is pre-spotify, youtube - so if you didn't have access to it in your record, tape, collection you wouldn't know how it went).

It also had the lyrics underneath the chords - and voila... singing whilst playing guitar... wow... this is fun and suddenly gives me a purpose on the instrument... well.... who'da thunk...!

soma1975

EXACTLY!

This was my son when he was 5. This was completely unprompted and him asking me to test his knowledge. A few months later and he is totally annoyed by it because he got like 1 mixed up with another song. He is obsessed/consumed by music and it is my responsibility to keep that flame burning. 



We have his easy Beatles for Kids book ready to go as soon as he's learned some chords. Hopefully they can teach him fretting and the dull repetitive stuff when you are starting out ahead of notation, and I can help him get stuck into what he loves before it gets killed by having to learn things from 150 years ago (instead of the music he loves from 70 years ago!)

Littlejonny

Some of my colleagues use this book. It’s cleverly written and tends to produce good players and readers when used in conjunction with a good ‘classical’ teacher. 

I tend to start younger children on Guitar Basics by Longworth & Walker, which is a brilliant book in my opinion.

It might be worth having a look at Rockschool books (I’m currently quite fond of the Acoustic syllabus) and also starting him off on something like:

20th Century Boy - bass notes for the chorus instead of chords
Sunshine of Your Love - along one string, open chords for the chorus
Green Onions just the riff
Peter Gunn Theme riff
Smells Like Teen spirit - 2 note power chords if able, otherwise 1 string version
James Bond Theme - mostly along 1 string
Harry Potter Theme - mostly along one string
Smoke On The Water - middle two strings, power chords
7 Nation Army - opening riff, then power chords then chorus riff on two strings like smoke on the water 

and then of course chords (loads of modern pop songs) Beatles songs - I’m currently quite fond of Eleanor Rigby Em and C, following chord chart.

Hal Leonard books are pretty good - Essential Elements is the one with lots of famous songs interspersed with melody reading.

I see no reason to avoid reading notes once secure technique is established. There’s no point until they can play without looking at their hands!

I learnt notation from the beginning, age 9 - didn’t see any tab until I was 13. I often get gigs based on my reading ability as there are a lot of great players around but not many who read. 

soma1975

Thanks for weighing in. Will check that guitar basics book out. He has an easy chord Beatles book but he's only on lesson three and so far they are just practicing plucking open strings.