Complementing an OM style (mid range): Shopping attempt

Jetsam1

Hello.

Have some spare currency and an "Ok" from the other half if I do a one in one out. The price range working in will depend a bit on trade in value on a Japanese Tokai ES335 as I am also cutting back on stuff that isn't getting used so much and I am much more a single coils person. If I go for the less expensive options to buy outright I will be selling it on commission as it is a more expensive instrument and I don't need the hassle.

So, I use one shop in Budapest (Stageshop) for everything as I like them and always have been treated well there. Current accoustic is a 5 year old (FIVE! Doesn't feel that way!!!) Furch OM30 with a spruce top and mahogany everything else. I would like something that will complement this and give me a different feel and sound to help keeps things a bit fresh. I have been solidly playing this guitar for two days now.......

So they stock in price range:

Furch: They have most of the range top to bottom.

Eastman: Main dealer from the PCH and upwards

Martin: Reality will be the X2 models

Sigma: Ok more "budget" but seem to very well regarded

I think I am edging more towards a dreadnought as I am wanting something different from the OM. I am keeping an open mind as regards laminate backs and sides but a solid top is non negotiable. I have a cheap parlour but it feels a bit too small and sounds boxy to me. It was under £200 about 8 years ago though. That is going to my daughter to try and get her going.

Watched a lot of Youtube and the Martins at the X2 level seem to be quite decent, and the HPL sounds interesting. I do like guitars to be fairly robust. I am realistic in that a "real" Martin is more expensive than my car so if I want that type of thing this might be a good compromise?

Never played a Sigma or an Eastman and is being concerned at all about Chinese manufacture fair? I know they are more than capable of making amazing stuff but crossing the price rubicon especially for Eastman kind of feels a bit odd (this is more than likely just me getting older), I have seen some ethical concerns as regards wood supplies etc as well. Also the government there is quite awful. But these are things I can do nothing about. I am happy with Indonesian guitars for example.

I know about Furch and they are getting a bit more expensive. But they are very, very good. In 2007 I bought the cheapest Stonebridge they did and it is only not here now because it got squashed in a house move a few years ago.

I like buying new and keeping for ages and ages so I don't really worry about perceived resale value, think of it more as the rent I have paid for the fun. Eg my Telecaster I bought in 2007 new.................

TL;DR: Play them all....................... :-)

Teyeplayer

Furch are good but you can’t go wrong with an Eastman either (providing you get a good one). I wouldn’t be limiting myself to one shop though, there’s a wealth of stuff available in your price range. The Larrivee dreadnought in the classifieds for instance will be a very good guitar; I picked up a s/h guild m20 (USA made) last year which is a fantastic hog dread and the equal of a 15 series Martin I used to have. I’d be looking further afield op. 

DavidR

Martin X Series certainly solidly built if that's a priority but their are better options in low/medium price range. If your shop is an Eastman store the Eastman range is massive and you really should be able to find what you want if you work with the store.

Whether or not the fact that they are made in China is a turnoff is entirely a personal issue. They have never been particularly open about their wood sourcing and then there's the dreaded p word.

Remember a whole lot of other manufacturers originally source their instruments from the extremely competent Chinese makers even if they do add finish and setup and market them under their own brand names or bought brand names. For example Hangzhou Yamaha Musical Instruments Company Ltd. has a state-of-the-art facility in China where some of the 1,500 employees have been trained by Japanese master craftsmen and produce 500,000 Yamaha acoustic guitars each year. More generally Chinese instruments being sold under defunct western makers names is widespread for guitars. This is perfectly above board business practice. Just depends what you want. The Chinese have been making stringed instruments for a few thousand years!

Jetsam1

One of the issues out here is finding places that actually hold stock. As an example there are other shops but when you select on their sites the physical stock available it goes down from like 100 to 2. Stageshop actually have physical stock over the Squire and cheapy level. And an accoustic guitar specialist. I would not buy an accoustic blind as there is too much variation.

Used market is either overpriced tat or overpriced reasonable, and not too much in general that would be intreresting. Considering even a cheaper end Eastman is more than the average monthly wage!

I know I have a lot of stuff made in China but it was just a thought as it has been something raised on threads before. As I said I have never played an Eastman so I will be open minded.

Jez6345789

As much as I get the Chinese thing as an ideal although in so much of our lives parts and products are produced in China the simple answer is if you are making a personal statement then back Furch, a relatively local and quality product. As long as you do your work and try Eastman or other Chinese guitars you can get a lot of guitar for your money.



I would personally shy from the Martin at that price point no point investing in HPL you will get better real wood guitars. 

ICBM

I won't name a brand or model as the one I'm thinking of is out of your price range - although those familiar with my posting will know what it is - but an equivalent model will have:

Dreadnought shape
Spruce top
Maple back and sides
Long scale (25.5"/650mm)
(Preferably) maple neck

... since if you want a mid-scooped guitar to complement a midrangy one, this will do the job. It's not actually *very* scooped - more 'even' - but it's certainly a lot less middy than most other guitars.

BigPaulie

ICBM said:

I won't name a brand or model as the one I'm thinking of is out of your price range - although those familiar with my posting will know what it is - but an equivalent model will have:

Dreadnought shape
Spruce top
Maple back and sides
Long scale (25.5"/650mm)
(Preferably) maple neck

... since if you want a mid-scooped guitar to complement a midrangy one, this will do the job. It's not actually *very* scooped - more 'even' - but it's certainly a lot less middy than most other guitars.

There are far too few solid maple dreads around.

The only reasonably priced one seems to be the Epiphone Masterbilt Frontier.

Sometimes a Levin Goliath will turn up at a decent price, but they're vanishingly rare these days.

woody

The czech built Bsg's are about as good as it gets imho

thomasross20

I've an as-new Larrivee L for sale (tbh keep thinking should keep it as sounds like heaven) which is more versatile than a dreadnought as can fingerpick as well as it strums and sits on the knee like an OM, I also prefer this brand to Furch having tried both but Furch do a nice rosewood, it has to be said. Can't believe Larrivee rarely get consideration in these threads. The Larrivee D in for sale section is also a bargain, Canadian and sapele which I prefer and is no longer used by them. I never clocked your budget.

What about a smaller guitar with a different top and scale length for variety? 

thomasross20

Also consider a 12 fret with the bridge pushed back for heavenly tonal response.

Teyeplayer

thomasross20 said:

I've an as-new Larrivee L for sale (tbh keep thinking should keep it as sounds like heaven) which is more versatile than a dreadnought as can fingerpick as well as it strums and sits on the knee like an OM, I also prefer this brand to Furch having tried both but Furch do a nice rosewood, it has to be said. Can't believe Larrivee rarely get consideration in these threads. The Larrivee D in for sale section is also a bargain, Canadian and sapele which I prefer and is no longer used by them. I never clocked your budget.

What about a smaller guitar with a different top and scale length for variety? 

The L series is divine, one of the finest sounding designs imo. 

Tannin

This one: https://stageshop.hu/en/acoustic-guitars/furch-guitar/furch-rainbow-custom-guitars/furch-rainbow-g-sq-quilt-maple-custom-used-acoustic-guitar

I'm in love!

thomasross20

I'm thinking about a quilted (flatsawn) wood for back and sides (brought up as mae above is quilted). Apparently flatsawn adds warmth to the existing character of a quarter sawn wood. And it looks great. But quarter sawn is meant to be WAY more stable. The Halcyon I'm getting will have an oil rub, not gloss.. so even less protection from humidity. 

I watched a video recently whereby a guy put a stick of wood across his knee and pulled. It didn't snap at the knee where the max "moment" is but at the point where there was a non-uniformity in the wood.

--> any thoughts on flatsawn stability? 

Btw that does look great 

Tannin

Cheers @thomasross20 ;

Great questions!

Your first thought makes sense to me. For any given bit of timber, cut to a given size, stiffness is higher on the quarter than when flatsawn, so it is reasonable to expect more snap and less warmth (exactly as you get when you substitute a harder, stiffer species (say rosewood) for  a softer, more flexible species (say mahogany). 

But is the difference significant enough to actually hear clearly? I'd suggest probably not, especially in a hand-made instrument where the builder will probably be scraping back to a specified stiffness (as opposed to a factory guitar where the backs are made to a specified depth). 

I'd expect there to be a significant difference In a top (not that anyone ever makes flatsawn tops), but backs contribute such a small part of the overall sound that I don't reckon I could tell them apart with my eyes closed. (But I'd be very happy to have a go at it - that would be fun and educational.)

As for stability, don't worry about it. Not in a back. When was the last time you saw a guitar where the back had failed? Off the top of my head, I don't think I have ever seen that - but we have all seen plenty of examples of tops deforming or failing outright. (Keep it in mind that when we see a guitar in need of a neck reset it is almost always because the top has warped under pressure, it's not usually the neck or even the neck joint that goes, let alone the back.)

Tops absolutely, positively need to be quarter sawn. But backs can be heavier (they don't need to be shaved down to the edge of disaster like a top), they are made of stronger timbers in the first place (typical back and sides timbers are one-and-a-half to two times stronger than spruce), and most of all they are loaded in tension while tops are loaded in compression.

(Any timber is at least twice as strong in tension as it is compression. Look, for example, at the way a wooden roof structure is framed. The rafters for a small roof will be 3 x 2 or 4 x 2 (they are mostly loaded in compression and need to be a fair size). But the timbers which tie one side of the roof to the other side across the base of the triangle - preventing the opposing walls from moving apart under the weight of the roof - are tiny little 2 x 1s. Because they are loaded purely in tension, a very small beam is plenty strong enough.)

As for stability, people have been building flatsawn backs for many years and they seem to go OK. Look at the number of Brazilian Rosewood backs you see flatsawn! (Because getting any old crappy bit of BR is a miracle these days and most of the the quarter-sawn bits are long since used.)

thomasross20

Excellent, as always..! 

Re the tonal difference you are probably right. Taylor say quilted sapele does have more warmth and if I KNEW this was the case I would be all over it. But it might not. 

It is then probably more a cosmetic thing to have the figured back wood. I have never seen quilted sapele in the flesh, only a lame veneer on our office doors which looks a bit "meh." I like the look of normal sapele TBH (it has a real shimmer to it, which coincidentally its trebles have in audio terms!!) but I note Bourgeois & Santa Cruz do special edition / anniversary models not using hog .... but using sapele!!! Lots of tone snobs would frown on it but just as I think Larrivee are a hidden jewel, I think sapele is the hidden tonewood...

It is going to cost an additional $1k CAD and then I pay approx 40-50% overall tax on it (import...) so it's a significant cost. I need to think on it (if going for quilted sapele - the alternative being SA hog...). And also whether to pair it with moon spruce or lutz spruce. Ed says he has a cracking set of high quality lutz tops he would pair with a nice quilted sapele - I just need to be careful as I don't want a wood that is too loud and I think lutz could be. Moon spruce has a very nice definition without the loudness. But lutz would be new for me (none nearby to try).

Anyway apologies for the detour but sort of linked re the quilted guitar above  
Interestingly, Halcyon told me they would just make the back a touch thicker if thought there were any issues re stability. 

I sometimes need to re-read your posts as are loaded with info - so I will do so again later!

guitarjack66

thomasross20 said:

I've an as-new Larrivee L for sale (tbh keep thinking should keep it as sounds like heaven) which is more versatile than a dreadnought as can fingerpick as well as it strums and sits on the knee like an OM, I also prefer this brand to Furch having tried both but Furch do a nice rosewood, it has to be said. Can't believe Larrivee rarely get consideration in these threads. The Larrivee D in for sale section is also a bargain, Canadian and sapele which I prefer and is no longer used by them. I never clocked your budget.

What about a smaller guitar with a different top and scale length for variety? 

I'd say the problem with the Larrivee in the classifieds is the 'D' part. It seems personal tastes now are towards smaller models. 

thomasross20

Parlour types (and 12 frets) are definitely becoming more and more popular

Jetsam1

It's probably going to end up as a Furch as I just heard there is a 30% off the Blue models until November. So should find something really nice.
Wouldn't mind a ceder top again.....

Littlejonny

Jetsam1 said:

It's probably going to end up as a Furch as I just heard there is a 30% off the Blue models until November. So should find something really nice.
Wouldn't mind a ceder top again.....

I'm sure you read my post - but in case not, I tried a bunch of guitars in Richards and the Furch Blue grand concert cedar/walnut was no.3 for sound out of all the guitars I tried. The only ones that beat it for me were a Furch Yellow and a Louden. Astounding guitar for 999.

TTony

Where did you hear that @Jetsam1 ?

Jetsam1

TTony said:

Where did you hear that @Jetsam1 ?

My "local" guitar shop in Budapest's FB page and double checked on their own website. Essentially making them VAT free plus a little (VAT in Hungary being 27%). So makes a big difference in value if I P/Ex the Tokai. I already have a Furch OM30 which is nicely developing after 5 or so years so it may become a much simpler shopping experience!!

I think I am going for a dreadnought and so it comes down to Red Cedar, Spruce or even a Mahogany bodied. I used to have the cheapest Stonebridge in Cedar until it got squashed in a house move and seems to suit the Furch build style (that was bought new in 2007 and died in 2018).