Poopot's Cover Challenge #25 - the letter L

flying_pie

@Habanero one way to think about gain is it's like the volume control on your TV. It can make things louder, and you could read that loudness rating with a meter, but there's a big problem if that's all you do.

You see, if  you turn it up to hear really quiet dialogue then music and explosions will be far too loud as is the case these days.

A limiter is like manually constantly turning up the quiet dialogue then turning down the explosions so it's loud enough but not uncomfortable. I end up doing that with my remote control throughout everything I watch and would love it if my TV had a compressor or limiter in the sound settings to do it instead.

It's also important to make sure there's not too much difference between the quiet and loud parts of your mix before mastering. If you have a huge dynamic range in your tracks/mix then it presents a bigger challenge to the last step. The first verse of my L song is currently a good example of a vocal with a bit too much dynamic range.

stratman3142

mrkb said:

I just use the Izotope mastering VST and scroll through the presets until I like the sound. Then render to MP3. 

I put iZotope Ozone 9 on the master track and use the 'Master Assistant' to see what it comes up with. Then I might tweak things a bit (using my ears), and reset the target LUFS level.

IMC1980

@Habanero - They are guidelines but if you look at the waveforms of a commercial release, you will see that very few people follow them, I have had the same experience as you, following guidelines and ending up with quiet tracks. This is what I do:

Record all my parts and then add an SSL style bus compressor to the master, threshold really low so it is doing between 0-2db of compression, attack at 0.8 and release on Auto, add about 2db makeup gain and have this on through the mixing process, when I am happy with the mix I use this limiter (free): https://loudmax.blogspot.com/ set the "out" to -1db and then adjust the threshold to the point where master bus meters are still moving and not permanently up at -1db (normally between 2 & db on the threshold) so there is still some dynamics. As long as it is not clipping you will be fine!   

thecolourbox

I've just read all the answers here and googled LUFS and I honestly don't understand it in the slightest, I think I'm a bit dim, but also this is something people train and study to do isn't it so I'll just say it's that...

For now while my brain resets, can I just install that free version of Youlean Loudness Meter and use a preset

My production skills are not great, so like with everything I seem to do, I just blag and scrape by and hope people don't notice or care too much

Habanero

IMC1980 said:

@Habanero - They are guidelines but if you look at the waveforms of a commercial release, you will see that very few people follow them, I have had the same experience as you, following guidelines and ending up with quiet tracks. This is what I do:

Record all my parts and then add an SSL style bus compressor to the master, threshold really low so it is doing between 0-2db of compression, attack at 0.8 and release on Auto, add about 2db makeup gain and have this on through the mixing process, when I am happy with the mix I use this limiter (free): https://loudmax.blogspot.com/ set the "out" to -1db and then adjust the threshold to the point where master bus meters are still moving and not permanently up at -1db (normally between 2 & db on the threshold) so there is still some dynamics. As long as it is not clipping you will be fine!   

Cheers! I actually have Loudmax installed but don't think I really understood the use or significance until now.

IMC1980

Habanero said:

IMC1980 said:

@Habanero - They are guidelines but if you look at the waveforms of a commercial release, you will see that very few people follow them, I have had the same experience as you, following guidelines and ending up with quiet tracks. This is what I do:

Record all my parts and then add an SSL style bus compressor to the master, threshold really low so it is doing between 0-2db of compression, attack at 0.8 and release on Auto, add about 2db makeup gain and have this on through the mixing process, when I am happy with the mix I use this limiter (free): https://loudmax.blogspot.com/ set the "out" to -1db and then adjust the threshold to the point where master bus meters are still moving and not permanently up at -1db (normally between 2 & db on the threshold) so there is still some dynamics. As long as it is not clipping you will be fine!   

Cheers! I actually have Loudmax installed but don't think I really understood the use or significance until now.

It is a good limiter, nice and transparent at sensible levels, just have it as your last plugin on your master bus effects chain

stratman3142

thecolourbox said:

I've just read all the answers here and googled LUFS and I honestly don't understand it in the slightest, I think I'm a bit dim, but also this is something people train and study to do isn't it so I'll just say it's that...

For now while my brain resets, can I just install that free version of Youlean Loudness Meter and use a preset

My production skills are not great, so like with everything I seem to do, I just blag and scrape by and hope people don't notice or care too much

The Youlean Loudness Meter measures LUFS, but doesn't set the level. To use a crude approach, you could stick it after a master limiter and adjust the level of that while checking the reading on Youlean.

Something like iZotope Ozone will set a level if you use the Master Assistant.

Habanero

Thanks everyone. I think when I reach the L mastering stage I'll set up a special project with the basic mixed track and try multiple masters with various combinations of techniques and plugins and see how they compare.

flying_pie

thecolourbox said:

I've just read all the answers here and googled LUFS and I honestly don't understand it in the slightest, I think I'm a bit dim, but also this is something people train and study to do isn't it so I'll just say it's that...

For now while my brain resets, can I just install that free version of Youlean Loudness Meter and use a preset

My production skills are not great, so like with everything I seem to do, I just blag and scrape by and hope people don't notice or care too much

LUFS is simply a measuring scale. You don't need to use it. It's useful but not absolutely necessary.

I didn't use it for years and I could still get my mixes loud enough by using my ears and A/Bing the mix in my DAW with either an mp3  track or Spotify. Now using the LUFS helps me get to the ballpark quicker but I still use my ears. Also bear in mind that different tracks can seem the same volume but you'll find the LUFS will be slightly different. We don't listen to meter readings. We listen to music and if it sounds right then it's right.

Don't worry about LUFS. Spend time learning about gain staging and how to use limiters in the mastering stage instead.

And please don't anyone worry too much if your entry is a tiny bit quieter than others. We're perfectly capable of adjusting the volume on our audio devices to give it a fair listen

flying_pie

Habanero said:

Thanks everyone. I think when I reach the L mastering stage I'll set up a special project with the basic mixed track and try multiple masters with various combinations of techniques and plugins and see how they compare.

A few years ago we did a mastering "challenge" where we all had the same unmastered track and compared results sharing our workflows. We could always do that again at some point.

In the meantime don't worry too much about different plugins. The plug in used is less important than how you use it. It's better to just stick to a few and invest the time in learning what they can do. By all means experiment more but that's down the line

thecolourbox

I think my newer version of Cubase that I can now use with my new computer has some kind of "compare track to another track" feature though I'm yet to try it. So I suppose the idea is you pick a reference track that's a similar style to what you're going for and just do that AB thing? Cubase is a bit funny about A/Bing as it seems to take the audio card 100% and not let anything else use it

digitalkettle

I was just going to add something similar @flying_pie ;

Fire up a commercial track once you get close to finished...a quick 'eyes closed' comparison will tell you if you're in the zone.

My 'mastering' process on a mixdown track:

• I don't artificially aim for a final mix level...but don't make it too loud for flexibility on the next steps
• track-insert gain plugin for general level control
• track-insert EQ plugin using a preset that you like the name of, e.g. 'guitar-widdle mastering preset'...my notes say something about cuts at 20Hz and 20kHz
• track-insert multiband compression preset as per above
• tweak to taste (this is the black art that I should spend more time on)
• master-insert a limiter set to allow you to get to your target level but not too aggressively...again, my notes say use K-14 display, loudest sections to be no louder than -10LUFS

I've got a bit of a thing going on at the moment where my SotM end-product feels a little less bright than other entries...so I'll have a look into that...if I can be bothered

flying_pie

digitalkettle said:

• tweak to taste (this is the black art that I should spend more time on)

Never a truer word said.

Start with a simple approach and spend time understanding the effects of the tweaks.

Having said all that, I just listened back to my first ever recorded cover which was 5 years ago. I can guarantee that the only piece of gear that's the same as my recent covers is the SM58 microphone I use for vocals. There are huge differences between the plugins and gear used with totally different drums, different guitar, different amp, never mind the settings for EQ, compression, different mastering approach, different limiter, etc and no LUFS meter.

Guess what? It still sounds like me. And that's because the tweaking to taste is still my taste (or lack of). And the differences over time from tweaks in our recording/mixing/mastering are very subtle, not ones that totally transform it.

Listen to Just Can't Get Enough by TheFlyingPie on #SoundCloud

https://on.soundcloud.com/8w4vH

thecolourbox

That's an interesting thought Flying_Pie, comparing an old recording with a recent one.

This was my first acoustic recording that I ever did, and no it wasn't before my voice dropped, that's my cousin singing

Compared with my latest acoustic one


I think I was better off when I knew nothing lol although I suppose that backs up the "use your ears" hypothesis (I was still too quiet back then as well though!)

EDIT ahh bollocks the edit removed my links

Habanero

@flying_pie

I think my learning curve has been somewhat steeper than yours. I just loaded up my first Garageband recording from around July 2020. It was my own composition called 'Right Here (Again)' and was a 'labour of love' in response to my previous two health problems.

Looking back at it now, the most obvious thing is it's quite mono as all of the tracks are dead centre! The vocals are quite pitchy in places, but I had no concept of correction. I didn't really know editing and so re-recorded sections until I got something not too terrible.

However after all that had happened, and with the pandemic raging around me, I sat back and felt pleased with myself. As a total introvert, if someone had told me I'd be uploading Cover versions here 3 years later I wouldn't have believed them. I guess that's a great credit to the little community here on this forum.

flying_pie

@Habanero if it reassures you, I'm the type of person who will research stuff in a lot of depth to see if I'm approaching it right. A lot. To my detriment I relax by learning stuff topic by topic*. Nevermind music, I have spent probably days of my life over the last few years just researching how to make good pizzas FFS! (but I do make bloody good pizzas)

I spent a huge amount of time understanding how recording works, and how to mix before my first ever attempt at recording. FWIW I didn't actually master the first track I recorded - an attempt at the Enter Sandman solo with my own backing track. Needless to say I researched mastering after realising my mistake when it wasn't very loud.

It's a learning curve for all of us. Stick with it and learn at your own pace.

* for some reason learning scales and modes isn't ever a part of this. My brain seems utterly immune to it but can absorb collosal amounts of pish instead

Habanero

flying_pie said:

* for some reason learning scales and modes isn't ever a part of this. My brain seems utterly immune to it but can absorb collosal amounts of pish instead

We all have our idiosyncrasies. I once realised I had 200+ vinyl albums and knew all the words to all of them.

flying_pie

@idiotwind in the playlist

idiotwind

I've sent in an entry.  Back to the straight covers for this one, a bit of Warren Zevon for you all.

thecolourbox

Looking forward to having a listen 

In an uncharacteristic fit of productivity I've sent one in, wasn't on my original shortlist to be honest but heard it on shuffle and thought why not