$Million Sound System

Bungle1

I was watching a Youtube video earlier from an Audiophile doing a 'rig rundown', visiting someone with a $million audio system (2 different ones actually) and gushing how incredible the music sounded through it. The owner was talking about music being more of an experience in it, including a Subwoofer (among many) where the primary reason for it being there is apparently its ability to influence the air pressure in the room. it struck me that almost nobody ever gets to experience that kind of set up - $60k DACs etc.  

If you wanted to have that experience, or as close as possible, what are your options? Seemed like the sort of thing where someone could start a business, rent out a room with some incredible sound system and let people come with their favourite albums and experience it. I'd definitely pay to do that, just for the experience.

Link for anyone who is interested:


Puts guitar gear GAS to shame really!

Winny_Pooh

I'd buy a setup that mastering engineers use, eg B&W 802 diamond speakers or big ATCs soffit mounted.

...not something some rich guy on YouTube recommendeds.

danishbacon

I heard a lot of this kit and even more expensive at High-end Munich. The best sounding systems were consistently built around Stenheim speakers. Harbeth and MoFi were also standouts. Highly recommended if anyone is interested in this kind of thing. It’s unlikely you’ll be able to audition this level and variety of kit anywhere else. 

Photos from the show:

barnstorm

danishbacon said:

I heard a lot of this kit and even more expensive at High-end Munich. The best sounding systems were consistently built around Stenheim speakers. Harbeth and MoFi were also standouts. Highly recommended if anyone is interested in this kind of thing. It’s unlikely you’ll be able to audition this level and variety of kit anywhere else.

I just couldn’t be doing with a system that big and complicated even if I had the money to burn - but interested to know where you reckon diminishing returns really kick in with expensive hifi gear? 

Would the average person get any more enjoyment out of listening to a system that cost £1m to put together than they would from one costing £100k? £10k?

I wish I knew enough about hifi design to better understand why I’ve liked certain bits of kit and not others.

Zoolooter

barnstorm said:

danishbacon said:

I heard a lot of this kit and even more expensive at High-end Munich. The best sounding systems were consistently built around Stenheim speakers. Harbeth and MoFi were also standouts. Highly recommended if anyone is interested in this kind of thing. It’s unlikely you’ll be able to audition this level and variety of kit anywhere else.

I just couldn’t be doing with a system that big and complicated even if I had the money to burn - but interested to know where you reckon diminishing returns really kick in with expensive hifi gear? 

Would the average person get any more enjoyment out of listening to a system that cost £1m to put together than they would from one costing £100k? £10k?

I wish I knew enough about hifi design to better understand why I’ve liked certain bits of kit and not others.

You can get amazing results for under 3k especially if you buy secondhand. Things become more expensive if you are trying to fill a very large listen space.

Rocker

In every aspect of life, there are ways of spending a million Euro/Pounds/Dollars if one has that amount of surplus money to spend.  Motor cars, Yachts, Guitars, Watches, Jewellery etc.  Hi-Fi is no different.  Listening to a properly setup very high end hi-fi system is an amazing experience.  If you have that kind of money and the interest in music, then why not employ the best installers to give you a sound that will blow you away.

barnstorm

Rocker said:

In every aspect of life, there are ways of spending a million Euro/Pounds/Dollars if one has that amount of surplus money to spend.  Motor cars, Yachts, Guitars, Watches, Jewellery etc.  Hi-Fi is no different.  Listening to a properly setup very high end hi-fi system is an amazing experience.

Sure, not disputing that - just wondered where those with the experience feel ‘amazing’ starts, price-wise. 

My assumption is that it’s a very long way short of the amount spent on the system in the video, but maybe I’m doing the manufacturers of the ultra-expensive stuff a disservice.

digitalscream

The most I've ever experienced is my uncle's hi-fi setup - he assembled it himself, and designed and made his own speaker cabinets. It's an utterly insane system, just the amps, DACs, turntable etc are easily £70-80k in today's money, and the speakers would probably add another £30k to that. It blew my mind back in the 80s and 90s as he was gradually upgrading it - there are six drivers in each cab, each for a separate frequency range, and each pair has a separate amp. Bonkers, but I can't deny that it sounds great.

Thing is, on going back and hearing it again a few years ago, it struck me that it wasn't that much better than Tannoy studio monitors in my office, driven by a cheap Denon amp - the primary difference being that my room is treated to be very flat and free of reflections (not much in the way of bass traps, but still...that wasn't the main goal), and his isn't because like most audiophiles he believes it's all about the signal path and nothing to do with the environment.

Both give great detail, both are a great listening experience, but one cost about 0.1% of the other. And mine sounds better at low volume, his has to be wound up to sound good. And, if I'm being totally honest, my Sennheiser Momentum 3 earbuds sound better than both of them in every way.

hollywoodrox

Bungle1 said:

I was watching a Youtube video earlier from an Audiophile doing a 'rig rundown', visiting someone with a $million audio system (2 different ones actually) and gushing how incredible the music sounded through it. The owner was talking about music being more of an experience in it, including a Subwoofer (among many) where the primary reason for it being there is apparently its ability to influence the air pressure in the room. it struck me that almost nobody ever gets to experience that kind of set up - $60k DACs etc.  

If you wanted to have that experience, or as close as possible, what are your options? Seemed like the sort of thing where someone could start a business, rent out a room with some incredible sound system and let people come with their favourite albums and experience it. I'd definitely pay to do that, just for the experience.

Link for anyone who is interested:


Puts guitar gear GAS to shame really!

Sort of like an Adult Disney land , if only there was someone with the resources and an interest in audio

richman6100

I've been going to HiFi shows for decades. Some high end, some more accessible to the average Joe. I generally come away from both with a feeling that I've encountered some real gems and some utter bullshit. It's always been like that. The world of HiFi generates both incredible audio quality and utter snake oil.

One thing I will say is that I have never, ever, heard a pair of uber-expensive speakers that would work optimally in the average UK house. For example, I recently went to the UK HiFi show with a mate who is planning to upgrade his speakers to these:

https://hifilounge.co.uk/product/wilson-audio-alexia-v-loudspeakers/

We listened to a demo of them for about 30 minutes. Not really long enough to make a conclusive decision, but good enough to get an idea of their capabilities. Aside from their hideous looks (in my opinion) they struck me as a lesson in engineering brilliance which somehow went beyond reality. They were hugely impressive from a technical standpoint, but not how I hear the world. The bass presentation and its control was extraordinary, but not how bass sounds to me. It was too controlled, too clinical, too unrealistic. Massive, powerful bass is not that controlled in the real world. Critically, at near-field listening, they simply weren't as nice sounding as my own speakers which are far, far cheaper. In the huge room we were in they could blow you away at high volume, in your average lounge with neighbours nearby, I'm not so sure. Now, the speakers that I own (after owning countless models over the years) could never fill a large space like those Wilsons do, nor could they control powerful, bass-heavy, music remotely as well at very high volume. However, and this is important, they sound natural, relaxing and realistic when you're ten feet away, or six inches from them. In my listening room (my lounge), I sit about ten feet from them. My house is modest in size. Even in large UK houses, you're unlikely to be more than two or three times that distance from HiFi speakers, so what's the point in owning behemoths that could fill a theatre with sound. It all boils down to having what's appropriate for your listening space.

Speakers vary hugely. Their sound presentation makes them arguably the most variable component in a HiFi system. For this reason, the choice of speaker you own is ultimately one of personal, subjective choice. My speakers - Harbeth Super HL5+s - are the cheapest components in my system, but are the one thing I would not change, Unless I had a bigger room, in which case I would buy their bigger brothers. For me, they are perfect. On discovering them, my HiFi journey stopped overnight. I'd found the sound that works for me. I already owned decent quality electronics from McIntosh and a very nice turntable - a Michell Engineering Orbe SE. While I love the look and build quality of the McIntosh kit, I genuinely think that I could replace it with other, comparable quality gear, and not notice a significant difference. Amps should be relatively neutral in nature if they're not going to colour the sound of a recording and deliver an authentic representation of the original music. Turntables and cartridges do present music in more varied ways, but vinyl is an inherently compromised medium, even if I do love it.

Price is the elephant in the room. I was lucky enough to buy much of my system second hand and get a good price on gear that I traded in over the years. I also bought it before I had the financial commitment of kids etc. The mate I mentioned earlier is wealthy and has helped me immensely by selling me gear really cheap, knowing that I could make money on it as I upgraded over the years. In short, I could never afford my HiFi today. Part of that is down to personal circumstances, but prices have also risen beyond reason in the last 10-15 years. An example; I paid just over £2k for my turntable many years ago - it was 6 months old when I bought it secondhand and was in mint condition. Today, the same one, with the same tone arm and cartridge would set you back around £8k new. I love it, but it's not worth anything like that kind of money in my opinion. The same goes for my McIntosh SACD player. It's a digital source, how exceptional can one be? It replaced a Marantz SACD player that was around a third of the price, but 90% as good. Diminishing returns in terms of sound quality vs cost are significant in the HiFi world. I'm very aware that I have paid more than I can logically justify have to get that extra little bit of quality. The reality is that you can get a fine system for a couple of grand, a wonderful one for under £5k and an extraordinary one for £5k-£30k. Beyond that, you're being indoctrinated into the world of snake oil, pixie dust and bragging rights.

Sporky

The bit that consistently surprises me is how resistant hifi people are to applying EQ and other signal management. Or sorting the acoustics.

For commercial systems I can generally make any given system outperform something at double the cost by spending a few hours on EQ and other DSP tweaks.

Hifi people would, it seems, rather spend money on different components than get the best from what they've got. 

barnstorm

Appreciate your thoughts, @richman6100 and @digitalscream .

I get that to some people those £80k Wilson speakers will represent pocket change, but it sounds like the potential for disappointment at that end of the market is significant, if you’re generally auditioning equipment in a space/chain that doesn’t much resemble your own. Although maybe those more educated than me have a good idea of how things will translate. Finding stuff I like has been pure trial and error.

And I guess if you’re a very valuable customer you can get an installer to bring a variety of options to your home to test?

monquixote

As others have said the environment is massively important.

I'm lucky enough that I worked in broadcasting so I've got to experience top end speakers in acoustic spaces.

There are diminishing returns to buying massively expensive hi fi equipment and putting it in a regular living room.

Most of the time when I've heard £50k+ hi fi systems in people's homes they've been a bit underwhelming.

danishbacon

A lot of the questions have already been addressed in previous post. As you would expect, the curve of diminishing returns is very much real in this world. One thing that was surprising to me at the trade show was the size of the “ bragging rights” sector of the market. There are plenty of products marketing the use of materials such as leather or decorative silver or technical ‘just because we can’ approaches which do not necessarily contribute anything to sound reproduction.

It’s clear that this is a segment that very much caters to the luxury/boasting market.

The remainder can be largely split amongst two camps. 

First the traditional hi and mid fi market. These companies tend to deliver excellent value and the higher end stuff is not unobtanium. They’re the ones doing the basics right and are not necessarily spending resources trying to reinvent the wheel.

The second is the ultra high-end segment, these are serious companies who are genuinely trying to push the boundaries and are using very expensive materials and processes and often operating out of high cost countries like the USA, Japan and Switzerland. They’re also in the business of making money, and at low production numbers it’s inevitable that the end user prices are astronomical.

I spent three full days at high end Munich, the first two attending as press, for a Brazilian hifi publication. The writer has 30+ years in the industry. One of the topics of conversation came to conclusion that in the 70s/80s there simply wasn’t the option to spend these sums of money on hi fi. Expensive kit, sure, but not anywhere near some of the stuff out there today. 

I have a Cyrus One from the late 80s. It would have cost approximately £800 in today’s purchasing power pounds. I suspect it’s far better value for money, at that £800 price point than any other £800 amplifier you can purchase today. Better was indeed ‘cheaper’ in this respect. 

The best sounding system in the whole show was a set of 1920s western electric cinema speakers, in a massive room with South Korean kit. There were two DJs selecting music to play and the whole room was very sober/unassuming. The guys manning the turntables were Thomas Schick and Frank Schröder, celebrities in the field whose tonearms were peppered across the entire show on £500k+ systems. They were doing so on a volunteer basis and for the love of music. I thought it said a lot. 

Stenheim stood out as a brand that seemed to sound good in all sorts of different rooms and setups, no small feat but their entry level is £20k. 

Harbeth is a classic for a reason. 

Too many other interesting brands and bits to go into full detail at the moment. 

A telling exercise was a demonstration by a Japanese sound treatment manufacturer. We listened to the same short piece of music, different deflectors were added behind, to the side of, between and in front of speakers. The sound gradually opened up in a beautiful way. The room was this small box of a trade show place. Sold on the idea. 

Me personally? A very ‘humble’ kit at home that sounds good in the difficult room I have. Old 80s KEF, rotel preamp, Pro-ject debut carbon turntable and the Cyrus. It sounds brilliant, makes the music I like sound great and enjoyable, do you really need anything else?

barnstorm

To OP's point, then: I've never heard of a dedicated listening room for hire, but it does seem like it could work, though perhaps not as a standalone business.

Bungle1

Sporky said:

The bit that consistently surprises me is how resistant hifi people are to applying EQ and other signal management. Or sorting the acoustics.

For commercial systems I can generally make any given system outperform something at double the cost by spending a few hours on EQ and other DSP tweaks.

Hifi people would, it seems, rather spend money on different components than get the best from what they've got. 

This is an interesting point and something I'd be interested in knowing more about. Doesn't running something like DIRAC or Audyssey room correction DSP essentially render any of the beneficial idiosyncrasies of speakers moot as they are correcting anything which doesn't fit their curve / response target etc anyway -almost homogenizing the speakers?

Sporky

I don't know how far they can equalise dynamic response. I assume (I've not used anything like that - always did it methodically by ear) they can do something about phase?

I'm not convinced technology can always beat the physics. Physics is bigger and harder than me, and it wins every fight. Treating the room (which seems to be anathema to hifi people) is almost always the best and cheapest approach. To the point that we have a partner who does the measurements and treatment. 

danishbacon

Updated earlier post with some gear porn

Bungle1

danishbacon said:

Updated earlier post with some gear porn

That first one is particularly insane. Looks like a piece of modern art.

Whistler

Sporky said:

I don't know how far they can equalise dynamic response. I assume (I've not used anything like that - always did it methodically by ear) they can do something about phase?

I'm not convinced technology can always beat the physics. Physics is bigger and harder than me, and it wins every fight. Treating the room (which seems to be anathema to hifi people) is almost always the best and cheapest approach. To the point that we have a partner who does the measurements and treatment. 

Exactly.

In learning about studio acoustics I kept coming across experts saying, "You cannot treat time domain issues (ie. reverb) with frequency domain tools (ie. EQ)

roberty

DACs and amps are basically flat now so all the distortion is coming from your room and your speakers

What upsets me is that people spend money on all sorts of nonsense without even the most basic treatment or even proper speaker placement. I suppose the hifi industry is comfortable with this arrangement

I treated my living room and set up digital room correction. My speakers are PMC towers similar to the IB1s that some mastering engineers use. It's very accurate lol. You can hear every production detail. No longer interested in upgrading

If I did change anything I'd probably get some active ATCs but I honestly don't think it would change my enjoyment of the music. Active crossovers are better for phase alignment between the drivers. But it's all meaningless if your room is faffing everything up