Switcher and board advice for new layout

djspecialist

I'm pondering a fairly major pedalboard update, and would appreciate some advice.

TL;DR: I'm thinking about changing from this …

… to this …

… and I’m wondering:

a) do I really need a switcher?

b) which board?

(Also "which patch cables?", but @Lebarque has recently asked the same question, so I'll watch his thread.)

Do I really need a switcher?

My main reasons for looking at switchers are:

• Signal purity: a few pedals in the proposed new layout sound great when engaged, but suck tone / add latency when they’re not.
• Avoidance of tap-dancing: I sing in my band, and there are a few multi-pedal changes which are pretty much impossible to make smoothly.
• Ability to change pedal order: I'd like to play more with moving pedals around in the signal chain, but the ballache of having to re-do the wiring means I rarely bother.
• Possibility to play with MIDI: currently I only have a few pedals with this capability, but I enjoy geeking out and would like to explore this particular rabbit hole …

With the ES-8, I’d put always-on pedals (currently only Anarchy Gold Class) at the start of the chain before the switcher, MIDI pedals (Nemesis and Particle) and looper (Pigtronix Infinity 2) at the end, and the tuner on the dedicated tuner output. Each of the other pedals would go in its own loop - by my calculations the board above would use all of the available outputs. Finally, I’d hook up the footswitch for boost, trem and reverb on my amp (Hamstead Artist) to one of the ES-8’s CTL outputs.

That would give me a lot of flexibility, but do I really need it? The band is just for fun, so achieving super-clean transitions isn’t really a necessity. Perhaps the re-ordering and MIDI programming might be things I tinker with and then get bored of. The signal purity box could be ticked with something like a QMX8 (a third of the price of the ES-8, not to mention smaller and lighter.)

If I do go for a switcher, are there other products I should consider? I don’t think I can really justify the cost of a GigRig G3. The option of separate controller and switcher boxes (Morningstar / Musicom / RJM) also seems expensive, and complex to boot - but I’m open to suggestions.

If anyone else has been down a similar road, I’d be really interested to hear about it - regardless of which way you turned at the end!

Which board?

My current board is an Emma Amarhyll 61 (pretty much the same size as a Pedaltrain 3), and the new layout above is on a Temple Trio 28. Assuming for now that I stick with the ES-8, I think that’s about the right size, but I’ve heard that Temple boards (at least once they get beyond a certain size) can have issues with flexing. Additionally, I suspect fitting my PSU (OneSpot CS12) under the board along with a patchbay or two may be a tight squeeze.

A Pedaltrain Classic Pro would be another option:

However, I think it’s a bit too big, and the rails constrain the layout options. For the latter reason, I’d like to go with a “perforated sheet” type board. I think however that I’d stick to velcro / dual lock, rather than the plate solution offered by Temple.

Another option would be a Warwick Rockboard. Here’s a layout on a 5.2, which fits, albeit slightly more tightly than on the Trio 28.

Does anyone have experiences (good or bad) of any of those, or suggestions for something else around the same size?

Finally, if you read this far, thanks! I look forward to hearing your suggestions

Lebarque

Good to see Julia on there. So good.

Lebarque

One of the reasons I went for a single strip switcher (QMX8) is that it sits at the bottom of the board and I can plug in at either end easily, with all my pedals above it.

With your layout above - with pedals either side of the switcher - how would you plug your guitar into it and similarly, plug your amp into the other end?

djspecialist

Lebarque said:

One of the reasons I went for a single strip switcher (QMX8) is that it sits at the bottom of the board and I can plug in at either end easily, with all my pedals above it.

With your layout above - with pedals either side of the switcher - how would you plug your guitar into it and similarly, plug your amp into the other end?

I should have mentioned that - I plan to mount a patch bay under the board, and wire that to the appropriate sockets on the switcher.

Lebarque

djspecialist said:

Lebarque said:

One of the reasons I went for a single strip switcher (QMX8) is that it sits at the bottom of the board and I can plug in at either end easily, with all my pedals above it.

With your layout above - with pedals either side of the switcher - how would you plug your guitar into it and similarly, plug your amp into the other end?

I should have mentioned that - I plan to mount a patch bay under the board, and wire that to the appropriate sockets on the switcher.

Ah, I see. I guess I didn't want the extra complication, cabling and cost of that approach. I just want the cleanest signal path possible: guitar, cable, switcher, cable, amp. No buffer necessary (or wanted). Everything else gets switched in and out.

ColWilkie

I’ve gone from a large Schmidt Array with G3 to a much smaller Rockboard without a switcher. I'm just a home player.  

First of all, I’d highly recommend the Rockboard.  It’s an ideal platform for the price, and the integrated patch bay keeps things tidy. 

I downsized to simplify my rig, but it’s starting to grow again

For your use case, a switcher with midi functionality would be ideal.  If I was playing out I’d have one again.  I actually miss mine and may well end up with one again as I’m adding more midi pedals to my rig. In terms of tone, the G3 did clean everything up, running fewer pedals it’s less noticeable. 

Plenty of people are happy with the Boss switcher. I’d buy a G3 again in a heartbeat though.   Support is amazing and they’ve been regularly updating the features.  It was very easy to setup and program. Consider saving a bit more if it’s an option.  Again, there will be nothing wrong with the Boss…

As for cables, Evidence SIS.  Solderless and easy to prepare and cut to size.  Keeps things tidy.  You often see them on sale second hand. 

Good luck! 

Neilybob

Lebarque said:

With your layout above - with pedals either side of the switcher - how would you plug your guitar into it and similarly, plug your amp into the other end?

Worth noting the Boss ES switchers, all inputs are in the back. None are on the side so I don't believe this would be an issue. 

Neilybob

I'm just about to upgrade from a QMX6 to a Boss ES5 (purchased on here, awaiting delivery). 

Main benefit for me is that you can create patches of a selection of pedals and assign a patch to a foot pedal. So patch 1 could be clean boosted solo tone (boost and chorus pedals). Patch 2 might be dirty boost (OD and boost pedal). So you are only pressing one pedal at a time. Rather than the way I have been doing it with the QMX6 (one pedal assigned to each foot.switch) which is still kinda tap dancing. 

Though I don't have any midi pedals I may look to purchase some in the future now I have the ES5. 

Good luck 

abw1989

One thing to note with the Boss ES switchers is they are quite tall, and through their design go at the front of the pedal board. This can make it tricky to access any pedals behind the switcher that aren't controlled by it.

andy1839

Out of three pedalboards I have ES-8s controlling two, and a Harley Benton FXL8 Pro on the other.
I'd never built a proper board before lockdown but the devil makes work for idle hands.

The FXL8 is on an Alder & Ash board, the ES-8s are on pedaltrain ones.

The computer interface app for the ES-8 is a real godsend, I find them difficult to navigate through the on board screen.

I also use mine for amp channel changing as well as changing channels on a preamp pedal.

I use a small patch bay from Bright Onion, with four mono and one stereo (for TRS three channel amp switching) and everything colour coded from leads to the nuts on the patch bay-it really helps with setup time.
And it means I'm not plugging in and out of the switcher all the time.

All three boards have been wired with the Boss solderless DIY kits and I've not had an issue yet.

I found the ES8 was a bit picky when it came to midi cables.

I'd love to try a GigRig switcher but I can't justify the cost when the ES-8s work so well.

Neilybob

@andy1839 What is the difference between the HB and Boss switchers and is it worth paying the extra for a Boss switcher? 

TheBigDipper

I'm slightly further down the path you're starting to go down. In my band (a drums/bass/guitar trio), I also sing. I have exactly the same reasons for using a switcher that you've listed. It's a board aimed at performance, not experimentation. Here's what it looks like:

Board.JPG

It's a Pedaltrain 2 board, powered by a Cioks D7 and there's a connection box (top right) for plugging into. It's an ES-5 doing the switching. I've grown to love it since I bought it a few months ago. I'm using the GTCore as an MFX, the Mobius for mod sounds that are nicer to my ears than the ones in the GTCore and the Ridge for overdrives. The RD Compact is for alternative amp tones to the Fenderish clean pedal platform I try to run into (sometimes a Simplifier Mk II, sometimes a Carr Mercury, sometimes a Rivera Chubster (clean channel) and sometimes borrowed backline).  

Loop 1: GT Core (GTCore input through to SR1 output) - front end effects live in the signal path, like compressor, EQ, clean boosts.
Loop 2: Ridge
Loop 3: RD Compact
Loop 4: Mobius
Loop 5: GTCore (SR1 return through to output) - back end effects are in this signal path, like reverbs, delays, clean boosts, EQ.

Presets on the Ridge, Mobius and GTCore are loaded using MIDI from the ES-5. I send MIDI to these pedals every time I load a new ES-5 preset - even if it's just to turn the units off. Once you start moving presets around your setlist, you can't rely on the status you inherit from the previous preset any more, you have to take control every time. I don't daisychain the MIDI. There's a Kenton MIDI-5 box underneath. That means I don't need pedals to support MIDI Thru nor plug them in like that. 

I have the Mobius in an ES-5 loop because sometimes I'll use a flanger before overdrives and move loop 4 in front of the Ridge. I have the GTCore in two loops because I don't want to go through an ADA conversion if I don't have to. The GTCore doesn't have an analogue bypass and it's only used in 50% of my presets. If I had to move it out of a loop because I've added something else to the board, then I expect it would be fine always in the signal chain and going through the ADA, but right now I don't have to. 

Tap dancing: It's really hard to hit buttons when your mouth is on the mic and you can't(shouldn't) turn your head away to look down. I stole an idea from Johnny Marr and have a Boss FS6 footswitch connected to CTL1 on the ES-5 and two global assigns so one button selects the next preset and the other the previous preset. I generally have two presets per song for verse and chorus. Switching sounds like this is easy and none of the pedals I'm using have any noticeable delay going from one MIDI-loaded preset to another. My presets are in setlist order. I don't even need the board nearby, just the FS6. 

Activate on release: I prefer to activate the buttons on release rather than press. In performance, I can find the button I want early and press/hold until I need it. 

MIDI pedals: I've learned the hard way that some MIDI-enabled pedals don't work the way you'd expect, or even work at all. I returned a Plethora X3 because it couldn't handle three CC commands from the ES-5 (one msg per effects slot to turn them on/off, couldn't use a single PC msg because load time on the X3 was 0.5sec and noticeable). It dropped msgs and didn't process the second and third. A Source Audio Collider was the same. Load time for a new preset using a PC command was too slow but it couldn't handle two CC commands to turn the two sides on/off. Only the first one got processed. A SA support rep told me they knew this was an issue, because their MIDI buffer was too small. TC support reps never even replied. 

Sorry, I've written an essay. If you've got any questions about anything, just ask and I'll try to help. I don't have all the answers, but I've gone down a few blind alleys. 
 

english_bob

djspecialist said:

Do I really need a switcher?

My main reasons for looking at switchers are:

• Signal purity: a few pedals in the proposed new layout sound great when engaged, but suck tone / add latency when they’re not.
• Avoidance of tap-dancing: I sing in my band, and there are a few multi-pedal changes which are pretty much impossible to make smoothly.
• Ability to change pedal order: I'd like to play more with moving pedals around in the signal chain, but the ballache of having to re-do the wiring means I rarely bother.
• Possibility to play with MIDI: currently I only have a few pedals with this capability, but I enjoy geeking out and would like to explore this particular rabbit hole …

These sound like the right reasons for a switcher IMO. 
I think a switcher is less useful if you're someone who plays more improvised stuff than "scripted", but if you're playing in a band and you need certain sounds quickly they're definitely a good idea.

FWIW, along with "signal purity", IMO a switcher makes fault finding easier, since in the event that you get no sound you can disengage each loop separately and isolate which one is causing the problem.

If you're worried about overall size, you might consider an ES-5 and an outboard "sub-switcher" either in front of it, or in one of the loops.

You've got the option of something like the Bright Onion remote looper: 
https://brightonion.co.uk/collections/remote-loopers
..which is controlled via the switcher's TRS outs, if you can spare one

Or something like this: https://emcustom.eu/looper-loopbox4.html ;  which is controlled via MIDI.

(other companies make similar things if neither of those is quite right for you)

Obviously you lose the ability to change the order of the pedals in those loops, but you could use it for pedals you only ever use one at a time, or for something like your drive pedals if you always use them in the same order relative to each other.

Finally, I’d hook up the footswitch for boost, trem and reverb on my amp (Hamstead Artist) to one of the ES-8’s CTL outputs.

If the footswitch has more than two functions there might well be something electronically more complicated going on than the TRS outputs on the ES series can handle. I don't know if it's the same amp you have, but the current webpage for the Hamstead Artist 60+RT talks about a custom switcher interface to allow a four-button footswitch to work with the ES-8. You might need to ask Hamstead.

The TRS outputs on the ES switchers allow you to have the tip connection open or closed, and the ring connection open or closed. That approximates what a simple two button "channel" and "reverb" footswitch would do, but might not do what you expect it to with something more complex.

fretmeister

Sideways mounted pedals cause eye cancer.

It should be a criminal offence to do that.

vasselmeyer

I had a board built around the ES-8 and it was amazing for all the reasons you've mentioned. Particularly around playing the guitar and vocals and avoidance of tap dancing. Mine was built by Chris at @CustomPedalBoards and used the Gigrig power supply system. It was the quietest rig I've ever had and I'd love to build something like it again. If I went back to something like it, I'd go a little deeper and less wide and put the midi controlled pedals underneath it as I'd never need to touch them whereas I'd sometimes want to tweak the drive EQs.

Unfortunately it was really heavy and for the sake of my back I went to the Boss GT-1000 MFX system so I could go straight to the PA with IEMs and avoiding having to carry the board, amp and cab. I do love the more "organic" nature of a big pedal-based board though, and actually tinkering with the board and playing with the ES-8's capabilities was really fun.

For example, the picture below was V1 and I soon pulled off the mini-wah near the bottom right corner and replaced it with a GE-7 for more EQ flexibility. However, I still wanted wah, so I set up the Mobius with an envelope patch and then used the ES-8s ability to translate an analog input from the expression pedal into midi CC values. I then used the ES-8 midi-out to send CC values to the Mobius which shifted the position of the Q of the envelope when I rocked the pedal - it was a very convincing wah for  the songs I needed it for. On a different patch, the expression pedal changed delay times on the Nemesis, or adjusted tremolo depth on the Mobius.

It's a great system if you enjoy that kind of workflow and can deal with the weight.

andy1839

Neilybob said:

@andy1839 What is the difference between the HB and Boss switchers and is it worth paying the extra for a Boss switcher? 

The FXL8 was my first toe dip in the world of switchers, and managed to score it really cheap used.

If you're using the four cable method you're stuck with max four pedals in the loop and four in the front end.
I did use the L/R outputs on the Line 6 M5 so it can be used in front or in the loop.

You can't alter the order without moving the cables either.

It also only has four immediately switchable patches without using the bank up/down function.

But for what it does, it worked fine for that particular board.

The ES-8 is much more fully featured and some of the stuff really works well.

The parallel paths work great for reverb and delay on together and its really easy to swap the pedal order around.  Really useful for drive stacking experiments.

I do like the simplicity of the FXL8 though.

I suppose the ES-8 is worth the extra if you think you'll be swapping pedal orders around regularly.

CustomPedalBoards

Hi @djspecialist The ES8 is a great cost effective unit compared to the others similar to it on the market, with the lowest profile of same sized units. If you need more loops you can 'expand' the loops very easily with the TRS sockets.
Theres always a way to do most things you want.

The Type of board your looking at there, consider a tiered board so its not all on one flat suraface which makes the whole thing massive.
You could fit everything you have on one of our Sml DDT boards which is the width of the switcher and approx same depth, makes it really compact: https://custompedalboards.co.uk/shop/custom-pedal-boards-cpb/cpb-dd-t-multi-switcher-live-in-board/
Goto our website and send me an email and I can send you some pics of boards I'm doing at the moment which are exactly this to give you an idea. 

Lebarque

CustomPedalBoards said:

Hi @djspecialist The ES8 is a great cost effective unit compared to the others similar to it on the market, with the lowest profile of same sized units. If you need more loops you can 'expand' the loops very easily with the TRS sockets.
Theres always a way to do most things you want.

The Type of board your looking at there, consider a tiered board so its not all on one flat suraface which makes the whole thing massive.
You could fit everything you have on one of our Sml DDT boards which is the width of the switcher and approx same depth, makes it really compact: https://custompedalboards.co.uk/shop/custom-pedal-boards-cpb/cpb-dd-t-multi-switcher-live-in-board/
Goto our website and send me an email and I can send you some pics of boards I'm doing at the moment which are exactly this to give you an idea. 

£860.00 - £999.00 for a pedalboard?

Neilybob

Lebarque said:

CustomPedalBoards said:

Hi @djspecialist The ES8 is a great cost effective unit compared to the others similar to it on the market, with the lowest profile of same sized units. If you need more loops you can 'expand' the loops very easily with the TRS sockets.
Theres always a way to do most things you want.

The Type of board your looking at there, consider a tiered board so its not all on one flat suraface which makes the whole thing massive.
You could fit everything you have on one of our Sml DDT boards which is the width of the switcher and approx same depth, makes it really compact: https://custompedalboards.co.uk/shop/custom-pedal-boards-cpb/cpb-dd-t-multi-switcher-live-in-board/
Goto our website and send me an email and I can send you some pics of boards I'm doing at the moment which are exactly this to give you an idea. 

£860.00 - £999.00 for a pedalboard?

Yikes