Plectrums on a nylon string guitar?

Flip

I probably show my age here but when I started playing the conventional wisdom was that you played nylon-strung guitars with the fingers not a plectrum.

Increasingly I see players using picks (and I mean plectrums not finger-, thumb-picks) on nylon strings. What's the conventional wisdom? Have string technology or even instruments changed? My grandson has been recommended to play a classical nylon-strung guitar by his teacher and I'm trying to keep up to date.

susbemol

It depends on what you mean by conventional wisdom. The traditional classical way of playing is always going to be fingers but if you ask most pros, they will probably tell you to use whatever works to achieve the sound you are looking for.

Although I did start on classical, I am not a traditional player by any means so I use both. Mostly fingerstyle for fuller chords and plectrum for soloing.

Different plectrums will also provide different sounds. I came across the Clayton Acetal 1.0mm plectrums as a recommendation and I agree that they sound quite a bit like fingernails, at least for the way I play: https://www.guitarooze.co.uk/products/clayton-acetal-small-teardrop-1-0mm-12-pack

Not sure if this is of any help as a reference but it was recorded with a plectrum:

Dr_Necessiter

Some gypsy jazz players use nylon strung guitars with a pick but I suspect that they perhaps favour a harder material to get that cutting sound that is associated with this genre.

EricTheWeary

IIRC the original version of Cavatina was Tommy Tedesco using a plectrum on a nylon string so it's not an alien sound. 
Kids are recommended nylon strung presumably because they are seen as easier on the fingers. 

Jonathangus

Rodrigo Sanchez (of Rodrigo and Gabriela) plays his nylon-strung electro-acoustic with a pick.

Flip

susbemol said:

It depends on what you mean by conventional wisdom. The traditional classical way of playing is always going to be fingers but if you ask most pros, they will probably tell you to use whatever works to achieve the sound you are looking for.

Conventional wisdom is exactly what you then describe. I've been playing for 67 years and as far as I could tell from a front stall seat of the concert hall I saw him in on the South Bank in about 1964, Segovia didn't use a pick. Nor did I describe playing with a pick as alien as someone else said for I see a number of people playing nylon strings with picks these days. 

Interesting answers, thanks, especially the info regarding Tedesco, one of my heroes. I'm aware that he played on some of the later '50 guitars...' albums produced by Snuff Garrett though I've not seen any details. Apparently some of the earlier ones were soloed by Almeida. 

My question centred on whether nylon strings had become more durable and less liable to wear when played with a pick or if the nuts and saddles of classical guitars had changed to handle what I assume will be slightly more aggressive plucking. 

My grandson's teacher has suggested he is ready for a new nylon strung guitar so I'll keep looking.

Supportact

I sometimes play a nylon string guitar with a plectrum. I've never had a problem with string breakage, that said I do use a thinner plectrum than I do on a steel string. The thinner plectrum and a light strumming technique sounds better to me on the nylon strings after some experimentation. This is for folk/songs rather than classical music. I just use regular medium or high tension classical strings (Daddario pro arte, La Bella, Savarez). 

digitalkettle

Flip said:

I probably show my age here but when I started playing the conventional wisdom was that you played nylon-strung guitars with the fingers not a plectrum.

Increasingly I see players using picks (and I mean plectrums not finger-, thumb-picks) on nylon strings. What's the conventional wisdom? Have string technology or even instruments changed? My grandson has been recommended to play a classical nylon-strung guitar by his teacher and I'm trying to keep up to date.

Flip

Thanks #supportact, the sort of experience and advice I was seeking. Much obliged.

Winny_Pooh

Al di Meola & John Mclaughlin have been doing it for decades

BillDL

I don't know the physics behind it, but when you pluck a string the initial attack note goes higher in pitch before settling down to what it should be, and the harder you pluck the string the higher and more noticeable the effect seems to be.  I've found that this effect is less obvious with nylon strings than on steel strings, but this is probably because people tend to pick/pluck nylon strings less forcibly.  I find the sound of picking normal tension nylon strings softly with a normal pick to be a bit lacklustre and muddy, and when I do pick hard enough to improve the sound in my ears this rising attack pitch effect manifests itself more noticeably.  Using higher tension ("hard") strings (often with the plain black strings) I can pick with less force and get a much nicer sound.  It's probably just to do with the loose floppiness of nylon strings compared with higher tension "nylon" strings and steel strings and the "pick" rather than "pluck" action.

There are of course "crossover" guitars that are purposefully built to make the transition between steel strung and nylon strung instruments a bit easier, and they seem to have narrower fretboards and string spacing, truss rods, and even a very slight radius on the fretboard.  I suspect that these guitars may be a little more robust and would cope perfectly with high tension classical strings, whereas you would have to check whether some strictly classical guitars are able to take the additional tension.  At the student stage it is more probable that the guitar will be a more affordable solid top with laminated back and sides rather than the less resilient all solid wood models.

There are quite a few different compounds now being used in "nylon string" manufacture from strident and zingy fluorocarbon to synthetics that attempt to create a traditional "gut string" sound (NylGut), and all those in between that use synthetic and plant-based compounds.  My feeling is that the modern and stiffer "carbon" types are better suited to using a normal pick.

I would say that if the music teacher has purposefully decided to start your grandson off on a classical, it's highly likely that he or she will be a traditionalist and shudder at the thought of playing the guitar with anything other than fingernails.

Whistler

BillDL said:

... when you pluck a string the initial attack note goes higher in pitch before settling down ... this effect is less obvious with nylon strings than on steel strings ...

How much further do you need to bend a nylon string to raise the note a semitone compared with steel strings? Therein lies the answer.

digitalkettle

BillDL said:

...

I would say that if the music teacher has purposefully decided to start your grandson off on a classical, it's highly likely that he or she will be a traditionalist and shudder at the thought of playing the guitar with anything other than fingernails.

I got that feeling too. Sure fire way to turn a kid off (and that's coming from someone who loves a bit of classical guitar).

You can do a lot better: a friend of mine has a daughter aged 11...she's currently working on the solo from 'Get The Funk Out'...and it's nearly there!

Edit: nope...she's 12...and has also just got the intro to 'Satch Boogie' down

viz

I have a certain style of technique and musicality that works for me; I use a plectrum because it gives me the attack and flexibility I need for what I want to play, and I use it on steel- and nylon-strung guitars in much the same way. 

Flip

BillDL said:

There are of course "crossover" guitars that are purposefully built to make the transition between steel strung and nylon strung instruments a bit easier, and they seem to have narrower fretboards and string spacing, truss rods, and even a very slight radius on the fretboard.  I suspect that these guitars may be a little more robust and would cope perfectly with high tension classical strings, whereas you would have to check whether some strictly classical guitars are able to take the additional tension.  At the student stage it is more probable that the guitar will be a more affordable solid top with laminated back and sides rather than the less resilient all solid wood models.

That's an interesting and appropriate comment because I'm looking at an Ibanez FRH10N as an upgrade to the starter classic my grandson began to learn on. That has exactly the characteristics you describe, a slightly narrower neck v classical, a truss rod and a slightly radiused fretboard also.

As a firm fan of Ibanez's thin necks as a player myself I'm pleased to report that his teacher has agreed the suitability of the instrument. Now to save the pennies.

BillDL

I quite like that guitar.  The closest I have is a thin(ner) bodied electro-acoustic that's about half the depth of a normal classical, and it has a soundhole.  It does lose a fair amount of volume and timbre as an acoustic instrument due to the loss of air volume inside the body, but it's still loud enough to hear while playing for myself or just practicing.  It comes to life through an acoustic amp though, and I very much prefer the sound of an undersaddle piezo pickup in a nylon strung guitar to a steel strung one.

The Ibanez body is appreciably thinner, but it seems that the soundboard is likely to be of thinner construction and braced internally so that it still emits a reasonable amount of acoustic sound when unplugged, and the small sound port in the side is a good idea.  On my thinline electro-acoustic classical the sound is projected forwards and I can't really hear as much of the unamplified sound as I would like to.  Having a sound port where it's positioned on the side means that the player will hear the acoustic sound more directly.

The lack of EQ and Volume controls would generally have caused me some concern, but I've found that the EQ controls on even the simpler and cheaper acoustic amps are enough to tweak the sound and eliminate boominess or shrillness.  I think the intended use is through an external preamp with EQ or via an audio interface into a computer, which negates the need for on-board controls while you have those present in an external device.

How will your grandson be learning?  In person or over the Internet?

I think that in-person it would probably be loud enough unamplified for the purposes of learning and practice, but would be perfect for plugging in and doing online courses.  For playing in the house at more realistic sound levels I would have thought that an acoustic amplifier would be a logical step to be considered at some time in the future.  You don't really have to spend a bundle for a small acoustic amp that sounds perfectly good.  I have a Laney LA30D that's perfect for my home needs, but has enough power in reserve that I could play in a pub lounge successfully.  They do a smaller LA15C that's roughly in the same category as the Fender Acoustasonic 15, and you can pick up something like a Yamaha THR5A fairly cheap 2nd hand.

Another brand to consider if the "crossover" idea has captured your attention is Cordoba.  They do a "stage" guitar much like the Ibanez, but also a "thinbody" with soundhole and piezo pickup and preamp (much like my guitar I mentioned at the start).  The "Fusion" range seem to address some of the modern implementations in a traditional classical guitar, while their (unfortunately more expensive) "crossover" guitars seem to be the premium type of this type.

Flip

We're clearly in much of a same mind #BillDL.

Happily my grandson lives nearby and I've been teaching him since he was 6 - he's 12 now. Nowadays we still play together (and occasionally at an Open Mic) playing mainly jazz and latin-oriented stuff. He has an Epi 339 and an Epi dreadnought in addition to his started classic. I play my Ibanez QX52 that I simply adore. He's been with his teacher for about a year,has weekly per-to-person sessions and is learning rap[idly.

Ironically she's recently bought a Cordoba but is unhappy with the intonation and the fact that her dealer would only offer a credit note. She's confirmed my suggestion of the FRH10N as suitable.

When he needs an amp he has a Line 6 which fits with my Champion 40. At present he doesn't need an acoustic specific amp but I've noted your suggestions.

BillDL

Aaah, I hadn't realised he had already been playing for quite a while and reached that stage.  That casts a different light on the picture and I can see why that particular guitar would not only be useful for learning now, but for the future to perform with.

pickerg

If it’s good enough for Al Di Meola… one of the best pickers in the business and he used to play steel string but in recent years been playing more nylon, for his acoustic stuff anyway. 

Lewy

EricTheWeary said:

IIRC the original version of Cavatina was Tommy Tedesco using a plectrum on a nylon string so it's not an alien sound. 
Kids are recommended nylon strung presumably because they are seen as easier on the fingers. 

My first thought upon seeing the thread title was Tommy Tedesco. If it’s good enough for him….!

He starts playing around 2.30:

https://youtu.be/rdbOxxfD4bU?si=n3cID1PN9DOK-Awm

stratman3142

@Lewy thanks so much for posting that. I've got his book 'For Guitar Players Only', which is a great source of information and has some great stories.

Also, I'd heard stories about him from great players, such as Steve Lukather.

Up until now I'd never seen a video clip of him playing. What a great example of a master musician with a hugely skilful and pragmatic approach to music.