Small, Giggable Modelling Board

MrBump

Jeepers, things have moved on in a short space of time, haven't they?

I love my valve amps, but I'm wondering about a purely modelling board with a PA cab now as something that is good and giggable/rehearsable.

It always seemed to me that you'd just buy one of the big, all in one units, like Headrush, or Line6, or Neural.  But it seems we're now at the point where you could stick a ToneX and a reasonable multiFX on a Pedaltrain board and you're away.

Is anyone doing it that way?  It seems to fit the modular need, i.e. just swap out a pedal rather than be tied into a monolithic and expensive single unit.

NickB

I'm thinking of acquiring a DSM Simplifier to use with either my HX Stomp for effects or a more comprehensive board to include overdrives a delay and Keeley Hydra

MrBump

NickB said:

I'm thinking of acquiring a DSM Simplifier to use with either my HX Stomp for effects or a more comprehensive board to include overdrives a delay and Keeley Hydra

Just Googled the Simplifier and it hurt my head... a pre amp and power amp with 0 watts..?

onlyatom

Do you already have a PA speaker you want to use, or would that purchase be part of the plan?

I would suggest starting with a HX Stomp (normal or XL), then maybe throwing a few pedals in the loop for that.

MrBump

onlyatom said:

Do you already have a PA speaker you want to use, or would that purchase be part of the plan?

I would suggest starting with a HX Stomp (normal or XL), then maybe throwing a few pedals in the loop for that.

This is from scratch.  I'm liking the idea of smaller, lighter setups as a head further in to decrepitation.  So a powerful class D speaker cab would probably be part of the deal.

TheBigDipper

MrBump said:

NickB said:

I'm thinking of acquiring a DSM Simplifier to use with either my HX Stomp for effects or a more comprehensive board to include overdrives a delay and Keeley Hydra

Just Googled the Simplifier and it hurt my head... a pre amp and power amp with 0 watts..?

It's my amp of choice to record direct or play direct as a clean pedal platform after going through a pedalboard. Feels good to play through, small, light, takes 9v DC and sounds great, too.

onlyatom

MrBump said:

onlyatom said:

Do you already have a PA speaker you want to use, or would that purchase be part of the plan?

I would suggest starting with a HX Stomp (normal or XL), then maybe throwing a few pedals in the loop for that.

This is from scratch.  I'm liking the idea of smaller, lighter setups as a head further in to decrepitation.  So a powerful class D speaker cab would probably be part of the deal.

My suggestion would be:

• HX Stomp (or XL) for core tones (amp, cab, reverb)
• Add a couple of ODs, modulations, or delays – any favourites you already have in the loops of the HX Stomp
  
• Run that to a QSC CP8 - and use the XLR out of there to the mixing desk

merlin

NickB said:

I'm thinking of acquiring a DSM Simplifier to use with either my HX Stomp for effects or a more comprehensive board to include overdrives a delay and Keeley Hydra

I have a MK1 in classifieds.....just saying.

https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/249726/fx-for-sale-amazing-pedals-that-will-make-your-guitar-tone-different-to-what-it-is-now#latest

thomasw88

Boss Gx100 or Pod go would do the lot...

Grangousier

Although I've tried fancier options, I'm finding that a Tech21 FlyRig v2 is doing most of the things I need from a modeller (though my needs are fairly limited, and I'm playing solo gigs rather than having to compete with a band). I keep adding pedals to it and then taking them off again because it just seems like too much faff. 

Keefy

Yes, current incarnation has a few choice analog pedals into a DSM Humboldt Simplifier MkII.

digitalscream

In my experience...don't do it. At least, not like that. Amp and effects modelling is amazing these days, but speaker modelling isn't good enough for live work in my opinion. That's why I used this board:



...into a real cab. As an experience, it's orders of magnitude better than running into FRFR or through a PA. As far as I was concerned, that rig was functionally no different to using an amp. Using a Matrix or Barefaced guitar cab, it's as light as you like.

Daiganzen

digitalscream said:

In my experience...don't do it. At least, not like that. Amp and effects modelling is amazing these days, but speaker modelling isn't good enough for live work in my opinion. That's why I used this board:



...into a real cab. As an experience, it's orders of magnitude better than running into FRFR or through a PA. As far as I was concerned, that rig was functionally no different to using an amp. Using a Matrix or Barefaced guitar cab, it's as light as you like.

That Board is Very Similar to Mine Just I keep all effects except a Digitech Wammy in the HX and have a wireless System.
I too For small and Gig able a HX Stomp with a at least an Expression pedal so Wha and volumes can be used.

Winny_Pooh

Unless you're tap dancing with your pedal board and need long pedal chains/presets I wonder what size your current setup is.

A 1x12 combo and a small board is not that different in size (weight maybe) to a loud powered speaker and a GT-1000 Core/HX stomp

TheBigDipper

Grangousier said:

Although I've tried fancier options, I'm finding that a Tech21 FlyRig v2 is doing most of the things I need from a modeller (though my needs are fairly limited, and I'm playing solo gigs rather than having to compete with a band). I keep adding pedals to it and then taking them off again because it just seems like too much faff. 

I'm considering listing a FlyRig 5 v2 for sale - because I haven't used it for a year and can't envisage when I will, now I have the setup I currently have. Yet it is indeed brilliant. I've auditioned for a band with it (and got the gig). All analogue (apart from the reverb and delay that run in parallel to the direct signal), two different amp tones, an effects loop, an overdrive and a boost that can go in front of the overdrive or at the end of the chain. Decent analogue speaker sim if going direct and also sounds great plugged into a amp FX return with the sim defeated. 

I just haven't decided if I really want to sell it rather than keep it and I have no idea what to ask for it, so currently inertia is winning.

Nerine

A word of warning: 

This is a huge rabbit hole you can go down and the net result could be a rig that will likely be just as big and complicated (and likely sound less satisfying) than a compact valve combo and pedalboard. 

Trust me. Been there, done it. 

Also, as has been mentioned, a power amp into guitar speaker is far more palatable than full range (with IR) into PA speaker or flat(ish) response monitor. IR's aren't great, IMO. 

I’ve gone back to amps after using the Fractal FM9 for a year. It sounded good. Definitely. No issue with that. But ultimately, my head into a 1x12 cab sound better. Plus! (And this is the crucial bit for me) you don’t constantly search for secret settings or values in the software that might all of a sudden grant you unicorn tears tone with an amp. You just use it. The controls are the controls.

Plus! You have ZERO frame of reference when dialling in a modeller because the additional EQ options essentially take you out of the real world. How much low end do I need in this preset? Dunno. I need to check it against a real amp to see how realistic I’m being etc. And then tweak from there. Same when you go from room to room. Because dialling in a sound with a modeller generally takes a lot of trial and error and tweaking - it took me a fair few gigs and many a day/evening of messing around with it to get it where I wanted - you become loathe to mess with your presets too much when you get to a gig. Like, you could improve them, you could also make them worse just as easily. It's a double edged sword. With an amp, you just go up to it and adjust the controls with no fear. A power amp with EQ controls on it may negate this somewhat. But you're already then looking at guitar speakers because you're using a power amp, and then you're back to diminishing returns over a standard valve combo. 

Plus! I found myself using the amp that sounded the best to me in my patches. I also didn’t deviate from the IR selection because I liked what I heard (and honestly I got a bit scared to change them because I felt like I'd stumbled on to a really good blend). The options kind of become redundant once you settle on an amp you like. I own an actual 2203, so using the model of one was a bit pointless. I also found that switching amps out was a bit of a pointless exercise seeing as I'd usually dial them similarly and end up with a sound that was nearly identical to my previous patches. It makes the options a bit pointless seeing as you have a fairly firm idea of the "sound in your head" that you cannot really deviate from, because how a guitar sounds to you was likely something that was ingrained in you at a very young age. It's also one of the reasons I made a thread on this forum about the speaker/cab being more important than the amp for large tonal changes. I still stand by that. You flick through amps with the same cab, and the results make you realise there aren't that many unique ways to distort a guitar signal. So then you're relying on IR's and they are the weak link in the modelling ecosystem. 

The one thing I miss. Stereo to Front of House with cabinet modelling with simultaneous feed to fx return of valve amp. But even that has its drawbacks. The stereo field only really works if all audience members can hear each PA stack equally. A lot of the time they can't, let's be honest. A mic on your combo, or a Two Notes Captor plumbed into your existing amp will do the same job.

I haven't yet mentioned that your rig is going to sound hugely different depending on the PA it's plugged into. Through something nice, great. Through a pair of Peavey tops? Absolute garbage. Therefore it's nice to have something on stage that picks up a bit of the slack. 

Plus! No latency in the analogue domain. As much as I didn’t want to admit it, I could definitely detect latency in the digital setup. 

My modelling rig could sound slick live. No doubt. My 2203, even with a simple open back 1x12 which doesn’t take up a heap of room, can sound vastly more devastating and visceral. That’s the difference. 

My rig has the footprint of two regular sized doormats. One for the pedalboard. One for the cab. 40cm x 60cm each. That's not exactly large.

My modelling rig had no smaller footprint. The pedal board was bigger (wider, which is worse) and the monitor on it's side takes up approx same amount of space as a decently sized 1x12 cab. 

Therefore, I began to ask myself what I was gaining (as my car gradually filled more from gig to gig with other ancillaries that removed the compromise from my awesome digital solution) and I’m not sure what the answer was. Was it tone? Not really. Was it convenience? Not really. Was it labour saving? Not really. Was it easier to lug around? About even. Was it more versatile? Not really any more so than my analogue rig. Did I like it? Yes. Did it make me laugh like a maniac like my 2203 does? No. 

Silent stage isn't an issue, either. Just get a Captor X/Ox or similar and plug your head into that. 

By all means, jump in to modelling and embrace it, but be prepared to potentially continually seek ways to tailor the setup for your desires, adding size and complexity along the way. 

Were I doing the rabbit hole again, I’d probably go Friedman IR-X into Fryette Powerstation into 1x12 closed back cab. 

That’s a decent solution, and the best of all worlds, in my opinion. I may still build the above rig as I think it would be stellar. Really compact and really great sounding, being all valve. 

MrBump

Awesome input - thanks a lot all.

NickB

merlin said:

NickB said:

I'm thinking of acquiring a DSM Simplifier to use with either my HX Stomp for effects or a more comprehensive board to include overdrives a delay and Keeley Hydra

I have a MK1 in classifieds.....just saying.

https://thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/249726/fx-for-sale-amazing-pedals-that-will-make-your-guitar-tone-different-to-what-it-is-now#latest

I'm looking at the Mk ii Simplifier. Sorry.

NickB

MrBump said:

NickB said:

I'm thinking of acquiring a DSM Simplifier to use with either my HX Stomp for effects or a more comprehensive board to include overdrives a delay and Keeley Hydra

Just Googled the Simplifier and it hurt my head... a pre amp and power amp with 0 watts..?

You can use it with a power amp and speaker with no cab sim. Or you could buy yourself a Fender FR12 FRFR combo thingy and use it with a cab sim. 

Woodandwires

@NickB pmd ref Simplifier mark II.

TheBigDipper

Just another bump for the FlyRig 5 v2. I'm in the middle of moving my pedalboard over to another platform - to a Pedaltrain Nova from a Classic (more space underneath). So it's out of action. The Simplifier Mk II is temporarily unavailable as a result. So I plugged the FlyRig into my mixer and reminded myself how good it actually is. Got a songwriting session this afternoon and that's what I'll be using. 

(Still going back to the Simplifier Mk II when the board is rebuilt, though).