I'd like to learn to solo- if you were starting from scratch ,where would you start?

viz

stratman3142 said:

Taking the Verses of Under The Bridge as an example. They're in E major. I'm not a fan of the sound of a blues scale in that context. It might be better to go for an E major pentatonic in that situation, and add the 4 and the 7 to taste.

But I suppose it's all down to personal taste.

Yes, and the style of the song. You can add sardines to vanilla ice cream if you want, you will definitely get a unique flavour, but if you’re starting off, you may want to stick to more standard sounds. Like minor pentatonic for minor songs, major pentatonic for major songs.

You can always chuck in the b5 as a passing note to the minor pentatonic to juice it up if you like. And you can chuck in a b3 and an aug5 as passing notes to the major pentatonic.

One very important point for beginners: don’t think that when people say “scale” they intend you to run up and down the rungs in order, like writing a book with the letters in alphabetical order, that’d be pretty meaningless. They are suggesting you use those notes that are contained within the scale. 

I will always maintain that the best way, or at least, the most musical way, to improvise is to try and play what’s in your head, not what’s in your fingers. Ok, your fingers might stumble across a new motif that you like the sound of and want to incorporate - that’s cool - but if you just copy what everyone else does you’ll sound like everyone else. And the deeper you plough that rut, the harder it will be to escape it. 

Danny1969

axisus said:

Danny1969 said:

I'm going to go against the grain here and suggest this approach. 

First learn where all the notes are on the neck. This isn't hard but it is essential to really playing melodically on the fly

Then learn the basic major and minor scales, look at the formula for building one major and one minor scale, say in the key of A and then just apply the formula to the other keys. 

Then realise modes are just the major and minor keys you already know with slight customised sharp or flat notes. Put those into your arsenal. 

Now all you need to do is listen to the chords you are solo'ing over. Make sure you know what chords they are and what notes those chords contain. 

Then start solo'ing picking out the 3rds and fifths notes of the chords you are solo'ing over. That's what makes solo's melodic. You can stubble around in pentatonic boxes hitting the old melodic note here and there but if you want to be melodic you need to know which notes are the money notes and generally they are the 3rds and 5ths of the chord they go over plus the root here and there. 

Really nice melodic solo'ing  is actually as easy as that. It's just for some reason guitarist will waste years trying to find an easier path when all they had to do was that  little bit of hard work to begin with. 

Honestly that is way harder for someone just wanting to get a foot in the door on a bit of soloing. I think you are jumping way too high up the ladder for a beginner. 

That was actually how I learnt to play the guitar and solo as a beginner. When I started there was no tab no Internet no YouTube videos and no one was talking about a pentatonic box or a cage system. 

All we had was piano books and the music teacher writing down the notes for those who couldn’t read the stave

so the first thing we had to do was work out where the notes on a guitar was which to be fair it’s a very very simple thing to do. 
once we started playing chords we knew what notes were in those chords because we started off by learning where the notes on a guitar was and could see the notes in those chords. 

The whole trying to make things simpler approach never really works and generally leads to players who can noodle around in boxes and that’s about it.  That’s absolutely fine, there is some superb music has been written and performed by people with almost no music theory at all. 

But if the goal is to be able to play some melodic solos straight off the bat in any given key then that’s gonna require a bit of knowledge. 

Teetonetal

I'm going to susggest a different approach....

Stick a couple of chords down on a looper.

Hum / Sing something short and simple over the top

Work out to play on guitar what you sung

I like this approach as it begins to connect your mind to the music you hear, rather than using scales and licks to drive what you play.

Tall_martin

I've tried that with a looper.

It worked a bit. But not enough to keep me at it for long enough to actually make a difference.

viz

Also, to improvise properly, you really need to be able to play whatever comes into your mind at the moment, which implies that you need to be able to play anything, literally anything. Well, anything simple. 

So can you play anything? Can you play happy birthday, or three blind mice, or the Harry Potter theme tune? Practising being able to play literally any tune is the one thing that is going to open up your abities more than just about anything else. 

If you watch any of the great improvisers and soloists sitting at the guitar or piano or whatever, talking about music and demonstrating stuff, you’ll see they can play anything they want to. 

Catthan

I suggest you stay in the 1st box pentatonic until you can comfortably noodle about. This will sound the most familiar and will keep you motivated as you unlock it, which will be easy. 

Then understand how others use it. There are some licks and phrases in there that are common vocabulary in many songs. 
 For blues-based guitar-driven music, this is the 20% that will get you 80% there. you'll be able to sit with a jam band and take some leads. 

When you're there, you'll also have a better feel of what you want to focus on next. We'll be here ready to make suggestions. 

Tall_martin

Thanks @viz ;
How do I manage that?
I am currently poor at learning stuff by ear. Sat listening to Run to you on the radio. I can play it, but to work out the riff would take so long, I'd just give up. 

Lewy

viz said:

Also, to improvise properly, you really need to be able to play whatever comes into your mind at the moment, which implies that you need to be able to play anything, literally anything. Well, anything simple. 

So can you play anything? Can you play happy birthday, or three blind mice, or the Harry Potter theme tune? Practising being able to play literally any tune is the one thing that is going to open up your abities more than just about anything else. 

If you watch any of the great improvisers and soloists sitting at the guitar or piano or whatever, talking about music and demonstrating stuff, you’ll see they can play anything they want to. 

It's true. To be able to improvise competently the ability to find the notes in your head on the instrument is key. And the great improvisers are "beyond the instrument" ... they think it, it's out of their fingers almost instantaneously.

But the OP is time-poor, recognises that he's motivated by "wins" to keep him interested, and just wants to not be left holding his proverbial if someone throws him a solo at a jam night. And an awful lot of people who happily rip out guitar solos in a typical rock/pop/blues setting haven't gone through any of the things in this thread that are being presented as the route to achieving what he wants. I mean people are household names as lead guitar players who couldn't show you every Bb on the instrument without thinking or play you back any melody you played to them straight away without looking around for it.

Yet to read this thread you'd think it was mandatory. I find it a bit odd - have we all forgotten what it was like at the very beginning, and the fucking earth shaking revolution it was to find the box and be able to use it straight away? 

Catthan

^^^^

so nicely written.

also, to the OP, just spend time with the instrument. play and try things out, join a band. 

topdog91

Tall_martin said:

I think 

What do you mean "learn to solo"? Improvisation? Playing the great solos? Writing your own great solos? 

Probably improvisation and playing solos.

In my cover band we were messing  around with some songs we hadn't practiced and the singer shouted " do a solo" at me. I paused with no idea what to do do, the played some out of tune crap.

Well, then the rest of my post applies. You mentioned somewhere about giving up; no judgement but there are no short cuts to putting in the time and effort. It never feels easier, but you get better.

Just out of interest, how do you learn the things that you *can* play?

stratman3142

Tall_martin said:

Thanks @viz ;;;;;;;;;
How do I manage that?
I am currently poor at learning stuff by ear. Sat listening to Run to you on the radio. I can play it, but to work out the riff would take so long, I'd just give up. 

If I have problems hearing something, I slow it down. I usually use Transcribe!, It's also possible to slow things down in YouTube, which is an option under the cog icon.

As a starting point, you can step through one note at a time. Memorise the note in your head, then find it by 'hunting' for it on the guitar.

Once you get used to memorising and finding individual notes, you can start to increase the number of notes you can memorise, then locate them on the guitar. Then try to memorise phrases and longer sequences.

Some people might be able to sing the notes, but I'm not able to sing notes in pitch. So I focus on hearing and memorising things in my head and going directly to translating that to the guitar.

I think the processes of hearing music in your head is called audiation.

Edit. It occurs to me that Run To You might not be a good one to start with, because you'll need a capo on the 2nd fret to play along with the original.

digitalkettle

stratman3142 said:
...
It's also possible to slow things down in YouTube, which is an option under the cog icon.

...

< (or Shift + ,) for slower
> (or Shift + .) for faster

bencowling81

stratman3142 said:

CaseOfAce said:

Box 1 Pentatonic Blues Scale - and add the seasoning (bends, hammer ons, phrasing, pull offs, legato, double stops, slides, learning the licks in that position of your favourite players) followed by learning it all over the fretboard and how it can be used over a 12 bar and beyond.

By 'Pentatonic Blues Scale', do you mean a minor pentatonic with a b5. 

Taking the Verses of Under The Bridge as an example. They're in E major. I'm not a fan of the sound of a blues scale in that context. It might be better to go for an E major pentatonic in that situation, and add the 4 and the 7 to taste.

But I suppose it's all down to personal taste.

I just grabbed my guitar thinking "how would I go about soloing over the verse chords of Under the Bridge?" As a start I played the vocal melody, which gives some notes and phrases that are already proven to definitely work over the chords. With that in mind it then becomes really easy to come up with melodic variations and riffs that sound cool, and in-keeping with the general vibe of the song.

stickyfiddle

Tall_martin said:

Thanks @viz ;
How do I manage that?
I am currently poor at learning stuff by ear. Sat listening to Run to you on the radio. I can play it, but to work out the riff would take so long, I'd just give up. 

The simple answer is "one note at a time". Its sounds patronising, but it's how to learn everything, ultimately. It's just that once you've done it enough, the time it takes will start to get very short for anything that's within your comfort zone. 

I'd start with incredibly simple stuff that you know inherently - nursery rhymes are a great start because they have simple melodies that are pretty much baked into all of us. Just take the first 3 notes and find them on the fretboard. You'll find there are actually several different places to play the same thing. 

If you're playing it in C, the notes would be E, D, C. That can be played all on the B string: 

-------------
--5--3--1--
-------------
-------------
-------------
-------------

or on the B and G: 

-------------
--5---------
------7--5--
-------------
-------------
-------------

or a different way on the B and G: 
-------------
--5---------
------7--5--
-------------
-------------
-------------

Or higher up the neck, using the D and/or A strings, e.g. 

or a different way on the B and G: 

---------------
---------------
--9--7-------
--------10---
---------------
---------------

Part of this process is familiarising yourself (ears, fingers and brain, both conscious and subconscious) with how sounds translate into notes and shapes on the fretboard. Then this will help you work out how best to play whatever notes you need in a way that allows you to flow between different passages of a solo, and eventually create your own from those same constituent parts. 

When you want to move to "real" songs, something like Oasis solos are a great starting point because they're all easy and very melodic, and again are pretty ingrained into anyone existing in the UK for the last 30 years. Live Forever and Don't Look Back in Anger are great examples.

These days it's also much easier than it used to be - you can use apps to slow things down (TempoSlow, Transcribe, most DAWs), isolate guitar lines from the rest of the song (Moises, Fadr), etc etc. 

But in the nicest way (and somewhat unfortunately!) there are no shortcuts. This is something you have to put the time into to make the connections within your brain.  

Danny1969

One trick for beginners who want to solo over major chord progressions, but only know the minor pentatonic box is to move your shape 3 frets down towards the nut and solo in the relative minor key 

So if you want to solo over the verse progression of under the bridge use C# minor pentatonic 

For Purple Rain use Gm pentatonic etc

The being able to hum something and then instantly play it is a by product of knowing what you are doing interval wise and again it's quite an easy trick to learn.  

stratman3142

Danny1969 said:

One trick for beginners who want to solo over major chord progressions, but only know the minor pentatonic box is to move your shape 3 frets down towards the nut and solo in the relative minor key ...

That's how I started, except I spotted major pentatonic shapes first. I called the major pentatonic my 'country' scale, because it sounded like 'country' music. I spotted it was like the major scale, but missing out two notes.

Then I realised I could move the major pentatonic up three frets to sound minor or bluesy, later discovering that the 'three frets up' shape was called the minor pentatonic. Which is the same idea but the other way around

That came from copying solos by ear from the likes of Paul Kossoff. Lesley West, Hendrix, Clapton etc. 

I spotted these patterns they were using. So learning the solos came first and I worked out the boxes myself.  I didn't know they were called pentatonics at the time.

Then I started to add in extra notes. The idea of adding the 4 and b7 to the major pentatonic must have come from copying Jeff Beck, because I called it my 'Jeff Beck' scale. I didn't realise it was called the Mixolydian mode until much later.

Similar thing with adding the 2 and the 6 to the minor pentatonics, which I called my Peter Frampton scale, because I got the idea from him. Only to later discover that the proper name for it was the Dorian mode.

Perhaps there should be and old fart trigger warning to my post, because I was learning this stuff from the early 1970s. There wasn't much info then, and it was necessary to work things out for yourself.

Tall_martin

Thanks again for all this help 

Just out of interest, how do you learn the things that you *can* play?

Mostly it's on YouTube, listen through a few times then find a tab on ultimate guitar and try playing it.

If it's easy (some basic chords) play it through. Then print the tab out as a reminder. While I will remember most of it, it's unlikely I'll remember all of a song.

If it's tricky, play along to the music until I can't. Then play through very slowly working out where to stick my fingers. Then try a chunk slowly without stalling. Repeat until I can play it all at the same tempo as the record

topdog91

And that's why people say tab is sub-optimal for long-term progression. Thinking again about the thread, I think you'd get a lot out of having some lessons. Sure, you can learn online but it feels like there are a lot of aspects to get you to where you want to be, and a good teacher could help you focus and learn the right things at the right times.

blobb

Buy a Trio+. Then you can play anything you want over it, be it 'right' or 'wrong' nobody can hear your mistakes. Then just let rip, listen to what sounds good and what moves / combinations do it for you. There's only so many notes available.

Tall_martin

think you'd get a lot out of having some lessons. 

So do I.

also, to the OP, just spend time with the instrument. play and try things out, join a band. 

Neither are happening with a one month old new in the family. Not for a while anyway   

Hence looking for something to work on