Acoustic action (now with post fettling update)

TimmyO · January 22

Quick dumb question check: when folk are quoting typical/preferred action measurements at the 12th fret for acoustic, is it assumed to be this with nothing fretted?

If it is, I think my Martin 00 has a much higher action than would be considered normal and I reckon I might want to get it fettled if there is scope for improvement.

ian7777 · January 22

My daadario string action gauge says the following at the back 'for a typical acoustic 0.09 of an inch with nothing fretted (bass side) at the 12th fret and 0.07 of an inch with noting fretted (treble side) at the 12th fret.
Its just a guide line i think, as i found my preferred action to be lower than most people's. Some prefer higher action of course.. just find your own taste.

drofluf · January 22

With nothing fretted but this assumes that your nut is cut correctly.

I’m in Kuwait with work so can’t check but, from memory, mine are around 2-2.5mm. But we also had a few days of very low humidity which may have an impact

ToneControl · January 22

TimmyO said:

Quick dumb question check: when folk are quoting typical/preferred action measurements at the 12th fret for acoustic, is it assumed to be this with nothing fretted?

If it is, I think my Martin 00 has a much higher action than would be considered normal and I reckon I might want to get it fettled if there is scope for improvement.

how are you measuring it?

TTony · January 22

Measure from the top of the 12th fret to the bottom of the string, strings unfretted.

A typical action would be just over 2mm on the bass E and just under 2mm on the top E.

You'll need good eyesight, or a specific string height gauge (most useful)

If your action is higher, check whether the neck is straight. If so, check the nut (fret at the 3rd, and strings should just clear 1st fret). If neck is straight and nut is OK, then look at saddle height.

DavidRees · January 22

I am convinced that the reason a lot of acoustic players regularly use a capo, even when playing an instrumental rather than accompanying a song, is a poorly cut nut ...

BillDL · January 22

If you have a gauge with increments of 64ths of an inch it is usually a lot easier to get accurate measurements than you will by trying to eyeball something like 0.4 of a mm, but you need good eyesight. Just count the 64th" lines on the gauge. 1.6mm = approx 4/64", 2mm = approx 5/64", 2.4mm = approx 6/64". The first thing to get right is the neck relief, then the depth of the string slots in the nut, and then the action. Most commonly acoustic guitar nuts have slots that err on the side of being cut too shallow for comfortable playing down towards the nut end, and even a miniscule amount at the nut can have a significant effect on the action.

BigPaulie · January 22

DavidRees said:

I am convinced that the reason a lot of acoustic players regularly use a capo, even when playing an instrumental rather than accompanying a song, is a poorly cut nut ...

It's also the main reason so many beginners become frustrated with sore fingers and quit.

It's so easy to put right too. No idea why it's not addressed as a matter of course by most retailers.

drofluf · January 22

DavidRees said:

I am convinced that the reason a lot of acoustic players regularly use a capo, even when playing an instrumental rather than accompanying a song, is a poorly cut nut ...

Good point! I briefly had a guitar that was only playable when capoed due to very shallow nut slots. I moved it on because even when capoed I couldn’t play it because the neck was too narrow for me.

But I think some tunes sound better when capoed, or they’re played that way because the original was. I’m also fortunate that my guitars are well set up so the nut isn’t an issue.

TimmyO · January 22

Using one of those metal string action gauges the action at 12th fret on low E is just over 3mm / 0.14in and High E 2.5mm / 0.1 in

Relief looks to be almost but not quite straight (when fretting 1st and last frets and pressing the string in the middle there’s a bit less than a high E diameter worth of movement I’d say

Nut slots - I’m not entirely sure - I did the test @TTony mentioned above and there is movement over the 1st fret but not a wild amount - here’s a pic of the nut with nothing fretted

If I capo the 1st fret it’s definitely easier to play open chords - but it’s not terrible at that end generally

TTony · January 22

TimmyO said:

Using one of those metal string action gauges the action at 12th fret on low E is just over 3mm / 0.14in and High E 2.5mm / 0.1 in

Relief looks to be almost but not quite straight (when fretting 1st and last frets and pressing the string in the middle there’s a bit less than a high E diameter worth of movement I’d say

3mm/2.5mm would generally be considered higher-than-average, and if the neck is straight and the nut is cut correctly (which your other measurements indicate), then your other variable (other than a neck reset!) is the bridge saddle height.

Can the height be lowered without compromising the string break angle? To lower the strings by ~1mm at the 12th fret, you'd need to take ~2mm off the bottom of the saddle.

BigPaulie · January 22

The action at first fret looks a tad higher than I prefer. I've seen MUCH higher, but it could be improved.

It won't make a massive difference to your >3mm action. Taking 0.3mm off your nut height will only lower your 12th fret action by 0.15mm.

It might be the angle, but the pic looks as though the middle strings are closer to the first fret than the outer strings. There's a train of thought that nut slot height should increase slightly from treble to bass strings. I don't subscribe to that. If you capo on any given fret that creates an effective "zero" fret that is uniform in height. That's the way I want my open strings to feel.

My technique is to measure the height of your first fret by putting a straight edge across frets 1 & 2 and measuring the gap between straight edge and fingerboard with feeler gauges. I stack a 0.1mm to that height and place the stacked gauges against the nut. I then file to that depth across all strings using proper nut files.

bertie · January 22

BigPaulie said:

The action at first fret looks a tad higher than I prefer.
,

the second - to me - appears to be "worse" in relation to the 1st -

Im not any help at all - Ive never ever actually measured - with a gauge - any action on any guitar in my life (acoustic or leccy) , feel it, play it, if its unplayably bad , Id adjust/fix it - by eye/feel.

Perhaps that's why all mine are bad

TimmyO · January 22

BigPaulie said:

The action at first fret looks a tad higher than I prefer. I've seen MUCH higher, but it could be improved.

It won't make a massive difference to your >3mm action. Taking 0.3mm off your nut height will only lower your 12th fret action by 0.15mm.

It might be the angle, but the pic looks as though the middle strings are closer to the first fret than the outer strings. There's a train of thought that nut slot height should increase slightly from treble to bass strings. I don't subscribe to that. If you capo on any given fret that creates an effective "zero" fret that is uniform in height. That's the way I want my open strings to feel.

My technique is to measure the height of your first fret by putting a straight edge across frets 1 & 2 and measuring the gap between straight edge and fingerboard with feeler gauges. I stack a 0.1mm to that height and place the stacked gauges against the nut. I then file to that depth across all strings using proper nut files.

Re middle/outer - I did think (by eyeballing the ‘hold third fret, tap to check clearance at 1st fret’ test) that the low E and the B (oddly) were slightly higher than the others

I don’t feel up to making nut slot adjustments - it’ll end badly/clumsily.

Sounds like I might benefit from a minor nut fettle and a bit more of a saddle fettle ?

TimmyO · January 22

bertie said:

BigPaulie said:

The action at first fret looks a tad higher than I prefer.
,
the second - to me - appears to be "worse" in relation to the 1st -

Yes and that trend continues up the neck

bertie · January 22

TimmyO said:

bertie said:

BigPaulie said:

The action at first fret looks a tad higher than I prefer.
,
the second - to me - appears to be "worse" in relation to the 1st -

Yes and that trend continues up the neck

which they would of course, but the 2nd seems "disproportionately" higher to the 1st

suggest to me, also break angle / relief ? time for a truss tweak ?

In fact, suggests all 3, nut, break angle, saddle - I'll get me Furch out on the morrow and take a look, get a pic

ICBM · January 22

TTony said:

Can the height be lowered without compromising the string break angle? To lower the strings by ~1mm at the 12th fret, you'd need to take ~2mm off the bottom of the saddle.

1.5mm! Never take off the full height at the first attempt - you will very likely get a bigger adjustment than you bargained for, because the lower saddle means the upward pull of the strings over the saddle is reduced, and the top will settle back down a little, so you may then end up with too low an action.

I made that mistake several times when I was starting out doing repairs, until I realised why. You can always take off more later if you need to, but if you need to raise it again then (at best) you have to shim it, and at worst need a new saddle.

TimmyO · January 24

I played my lad’s Eastman earlier and the nut on it is definitely cut lower and it plays more easily in the open positions.

Hmm.

bertie · January 24

TimmyO said:

I played my lad’s Eastman earlier and the nut on it is definitely cut lower and it plays more easily in the open positions.

Hmm.

sell the martin, buy an eastman (or furch

)

simples

bertie · January 26

don't know what the fuss is about,

guitarjack66 · January 26

bertie said:

don't know what the fuss is about,

You could always fire arrows.

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Acoustic action (now with post fettling update)

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