Whats all the noise about USA made guitars?

rlw

As ever, in my mind, the question is why, if Epiphone can make a really very very good LP with a retail price of £1500, does the equivalent MIA Gibson cost £3000?       

Is the Gibson twice as good or the Epi only half the guitar that the Gibson is?   

Or PRS?   Of course, the MIA models are a bit more exotic but three or four times better than the SE models?

And Fender?  I have a MIM Strat and its brilliant.  It does what I want, is well made and sounds good.   And it cost me about £600.  Why does a CS model, ignoring relics which is even sillier, made in exactly the same way to begin with, costs upwards of four times this price, other than there's one born every minute.

MIA is no better than MIJ or MIC or MIK. Definitely not better than made in Croydon.   Any one of my Tokais will stand comparison with any Gibson USA model and, probably, CS models too.  

Although I'm relatively new to all of this, it seems to me that we have gone from the age of having one, maybe two, working guitars to the point of many people being amateur collectors who like, and can afford to, have lots of nice things.  And if we're having nice things, they have to be the "best".

At a certain quality level, it's pure snobbery, like being in the wrong club.  And to paraphrase Groucho Marks, that's a club I'm not bothered about being a member of.

Penn

Just going to point out if you want a Rickenbacker you can only buy a USA made one. 

Kittyfrisk

Penn said:

Just going to point out if you want a genuine Rickenbacker you can only buy a USA made one. 

FTFY 

RaymondLin

If you think people think USA guitar are superior than everyone else, there are people out there who thinks the new Fuji X100VI is worse because it is now made in China as opposed to the X100V that was made in Japan.

 All the while, posting this crap online through their Made in China phones…it’s a piece of metal and silicon.  If there is anything that is easy to shift manufacturing, it is electronics and it is not like this is China’s first rodeo.  These people would have a house full of Made in China stuff like TV, Xbox, PS5, Laptops, Computers, kitchen appliances, parts in their car, all sorts.  Yet they somehow thinks a camera will be worse off because it is made in China now.

When asked about Fuji’s other camera (X-Pro line) that is Made in Japan and had QC problems…they give some BS reason that blames something else.

These are merely collectors masquerading as photographers all the while showing hypocrisies.  They will say things like “the value of the V will be higher than the VI”, BS like that.  When the original X100 is still the cheapest of all the ones out there, made in Japan too.

Creed_Clicks

Penn said:

Just going to point out if you want a Rickenbacker you can only buy a USA made one. 

That's their business model though isn't it? you can get Japanese lawsuit Ric copies.

Penn

Creed_Clicks said:

Penn said:

Just going to point out if you want a Rickenbacker you can only buy a USA made one. 

That's their business model though isn't it? you can get Japanese lawsuit Ric copies.

Yes totally but the point is still valid. If you want one you have to buy a USA made one. 

You can buy a Chinese made “Gibson” if you want to but that doesn’t make it a Gibson. 

In the same way some people won’t see a Mexican Fender as a real Fender. My brother wouldn’t buy them and says they aren’t real fenders but then he owns a load of old fender crap from the 60s. Nostalgia isn’t what it used to be. 

rlw

Gibson, in particular, seems to have created a problem that didn't exist a while ago.   Keeping the brands separate - different headstock etc - was fine but once they decided to go more upmarket with the Epis, and compete with their own Gibson products, I think that they would have done better by rationalising the headstock and branding them as Gibson and to hell with it.

Then they could have stopped making the crappy bottom end of the Gibson range and replaced them with far better Asian made, Gibson branded, Epis.  End of problem as the guitars would still have the Gibson cachet and brand values that many people think is implied by MIA.

SlopeSoarer

I suspect it is 'us' that creates the problem wanting the best that we can afford, justify, desire, etc... though that doesn't apply to everyone. 

Putting the effort in will result in the best noise. Unfortunately I'm a bit lazy!

earwighoney

RaymondLin said:

If you think people think USA guitar are superior than everyone else, there are people out there who thinks the new Fuji X100VI is worse because it is now made in China as opposed to the X100V that was made in Japan.

 All the while, posting this crap online through their Made in China phones…it’s a piece of metal and silicon.  If there is anything that is easy to shift manufacturing is electronics and it is not like this is China’s first rodeo.  These people would have a house full of Made in China stuff like TV, Xbox, PS5, Laptops, Computers, kitchen appliances, parts in their car, all sorts.  Yet they somehow thinks a camera will be worse off because it is made in China now.

When asked about Fuji’s other camera (X-Pro line) that is Made in Japan and had QC problems…they give some BS reason that blames something else.

These are merely collectors masquerading as photographers all the while showing hypocrisies.  They will say things like “the value of the V will be higher than the VI”, BS like that.  When the original X100 is still the cheapest of all the ones out there, made in Japan too.

Thanks for this observation, I imagine there are a number of other hobbies where this mindset applies.  

I imagine for cameras, many simply have no idea where they are made!

I'm in agreement. I've never quite understood how a consumer will have problems with MIC goods when the most integral objects one owns (laptop, TV, phone) are all MIC. 

Tannin

Why all the noise? In one word: ignorance. 

Some people - not very bright people admittedly, but there is an awful lot of them - simply don't realise that guitar makers all around the world are turning out spectacular quality, turning out superb guitars which, all things considered, are better instruments than the hidebound American majors make. 

In Europe you have the understated excellence of Lakewood and the downright outstanding Furch. in the UK Lowden is a  legend and deservedly so. in Australia Maton has been the go-to brand for decades, with Cole Clark now ranked highly, and newcomers Pratley and Fenech both carving out reputations. In Japan, quality guitar making has been a way of life for the best part of 50 years. And so on. 

Note that I haven't even mentioned the cheap Asian countries where decent, ethical timber supply is very difficult to see and impossible to verify (China in particular) and gross ill-treatment of workers is routine (Indonesia and other places - special mention for Cort in this connection). In any case, you don't have to look for illegal loggers and and human rights abusers to find instruments which are, all things considered, better than most American ones.

Nor do you have to look for lower wages - pretty much everywhere outside the 3rd World has higher wages than the USA, and usually higher business costs in other departments too. American guitars are very, very expensive. It's not just that they have high sticker prices, they are also (for the most part) under-specified compared with equivalent guitars made in Europe, Australia, or Japan. 

Does American make good guitars? Sure it does. 

Are they better than guitars made in the UK, Europe, Australia, or Japan? No.

Are they inferior to guitars made in the UK, Europe, Australia, or Japan? On the whole, yes. They under deliver at any given price point, or looked at from the other direction, are seriously overpriced at any given specification.

Have I bought any American guitars myself? Yes, two (a Tacoma and a Guild). I still have the Tacoma and love it.

Would I like more American guitars one day? Sure. I have my eye on an all-Koa Taylor and am not averse to the notion of a Martin HD-28 or a Collings. I am perfectly well aware that they are poor value for money (not so much the Koa Taylor, which is pretty reasonable for what it is) but once in a while they offer something different that I want. For the most part I'll go on buying the best guitars from the best makers - at any given price point a company like (say) Lakewood will always deliver a better guitar than you can get from (say) Gibson - but it is not good to be too inflexible about these things. If I fancy an all-Koa Taylor (and I do) then I'll buy one and not worry too much about the price. (But not this year because I want to stay married!)

strtdv

Ultimately I think it comes down to 3 reasons:
Tradition
Labour costs
Brand perception (which is related to tradition)

Traditionally there best Fender and Gibson/Epiphone guitars were made in the USA and the best Ibanez were made in Japan, so that is still something that exists in the minds of buyers (and is encouraged by the brands).



Labour costs are higher in the USA, so as has been said it makes more sense to make a more premium product there as you can charge more for it and make a better profit per unit despite the higher labour (and probably material) costs.

Using the example of MIM vs MIA Fender, there are lots of people on the thread saying how good MIM Strats and Teles are, and this is true. There are however material differences between the MIM guitars and MIA guitars that make the MIA guitar "better".

I've got a 2001 MIM strat. The neck is great and it plays well. The stock tuners were 90% as good as the stock tuners on an MIA strat. It cost about £300-350 back in 2003. I'd still (after a pickup upgrade) happily use it as a gigging guitar as it plays well and it's solid and inexpensive.

I also owned a 2008 American Standard Tele. The ways in which the MIA were better than the MIM are:
-3 piece alder body on the MIA vs butcher block poplar body on the MIM (transparent finish MIMs at the time had the same butcher block body with a veneer applied to hide it)
-alnico pickups on the MIA vs ceramic bar on the MIM
-steel bridge on the MIA vs cheap metal bridge on the MIM
-pretty thin polyurethane finish on the MIA vs thick polyester finish on the MIM
-MIA came with a hardcase, MIM did not
As a result of all the above the MIA sounded and felt better in my opinion.

I think the American Standard was about £800 at the time. Are the differences worth £450-500 more than an MIM strat? That's a matter of opinion, but there's no denying that there are differences.

Over time the MIMs have got better (Deluxe player for instance), though this has corresponded to steady price increases so arguably they aren't the bargain they once were.
The MIAs have continued to get upgrades over the years to justify the difference in price (really starting with the American Deluxe range which became the Elite and then Ultra range, as well as the American Standard becoming the American Professional, and the Highway 1 which was introduced as a more affordable USA made guitar with stripped back features and a gig bag instead of case becoming the American Performer).
The American Vintage range goes a step further and adds nitro finishes and custom shop pickups.

Tannin

strtdv said:

Ultimately I think it comes down to 3 reasons:
Tradition
Labour costs
Brand perception (which is related to tradition)

Traditionally there best Fender and Gibson/Epiphone guitars were made in the USA and the best Ibanez were made in Japan, so that is still something that exists in the minds of buyers (and is encouraged by the brands).

Labour costs are higher in the USA, so as has been said it makes more sense to make a more premium product there as you can charge more for it and make a better profit per unit despite the higher labour (and probably material) costs.

Oh dear. Yes, many Americans trot this rubbish out, and repeat it so often that they believe it but it is complete horseshit. 

The United States does NOT have higher labour costs than comparable countries. Not even close. Wages are higher in Germany, Japan, Australia, the UK, and Canada. Hell, even South Korea has a higher minimum wage than the US, and the Czech Republic is equal. 

Only poor 3rd World countries like Indonesia, Mexico, and China have lower wages than the USA. The Yanks constantly repeat the "our stuff is expensive because labour costs" line and it isn't even close to being true - compared to all other wealthy countries (UK, Japan, Canada, Europe, etc.) their wages are lousy. 

(Note that their per-capita income is high, but this is because wealthy Americans often have huge incomes: there aren't many of them but they skew the average.)

In short, even though America has lower, often much lower labour costs, American guitar prices - comparing like for like - are usually much higher than those of manufacturers in places like Germany and Australia and Japan. 

Kurtis

tekbow said:

PFAllen2 said:

Historical precedent? There is am implied caché about inventing something first, or making it for a long time. It harks back to the notion of the good ole days, when things were built to last, done properly etc.

I agree with this, and there was a point when US mass produced guitars were the most developed in terms of build, fit, finish, ergonomics, and aesthetics.

But everyone else long since caught up.

I think the Japanese surpassed them at any given price point a long time ago.

But what the Japanese don't have, for most of their brands are the mythos that was built up, and that counts for a lot in many buyer's heads

What makes the Japanese ones better? 

strtdv

@Tannin I'm not comparing the USA with any of those countries. Primarily I'm comparing them with Mexico, China and Indonesia, which is where the majority of "cheap versions" of American guitars are made, which is what this thread is actually about.

A nice premium German guitar like a Duesenberg  Fantom costs about £2900.
A nice American guitar of similar construction like a Les Paul Standard costs about £2500.

Tannin

Compare equal standard guitars from Martin, Gibson, Taylor, Guild, Lakewood, Furch, Maton, Takamine (MIJ), Cole Clark (MIA), Yamaha (MIJ) and the Martin and the Gibson will be easily the most expensive, even though they are made in the second-lowest wage country. 

tekbow

Kurtis said:

tekbow said:

PFAllen2 said:

Historical precedent? There is am implied caché about inventing something first, or making it for a long time. It harks back to the notion of the good ole days, when things were built to last, done properly etc.

I agree with this, and there was a point when US mass produced guitars were the most developed in terms of build, fit, finish, ergonomics, and aesthetics.

But everyone else long since caught up.

I think the Japanese surpassed them at any given price point a long time ago.

But what the Japanese don't have, for most of their brands are the mythos that was built up, and that counts for a lot in many buyer's heads

What makes the Japanese ones better? 

Generally a Japanese guitar of equivalent material spec tends to have better build, fit, finish, and is cheaper. Bang per buck basically. Although the gap in prices has been closing recently depending on branding.

and consistency of the above factors too.

OilCityPickups

FelineGuitars said:

Honestly - in this MODERN  day and age

If you have the same CNC machine set up in factories in different countries. 

If you let each factory use the same raw materials and the same parts 

If you let each factory use the same files for the CNC, so no variance in body shapes etc

If each factory has staff who are familiar with guitars and how a good guitar should be

If each factory has the same quality control and proceedures in place

There is no reason I can see that the resulting product won't be the same

The differences will be:

The nationality of the person who presses the start button on the CNC 

The language spoken amongst the staff

Only in the players mind based on historical reasons and nostalgia*

*Possibly due to old fashioned ideas based on national pride, jingo-ism or racism

Completely this ... 
Personally I have no preference either way re poly v nitro finishes as it makes dick all difference to the 'tone' ... but I wish my US Gibson Les Paul chipped, dented and scratched less easily. 

I have championed the 'feel' of US instruments in the past ... but the Far East has caught up big style. My Far Eastern Gretsch 5420 is just as much of a lovely, quirky, cantankerous suitcase of a guitar as any US one I've played :-)

motorhead

earwighoney said:

Thanks for this observation, I imagine there are a number of other hobbies where this mindset applies.

100%. It’s everywhere - bikes, running shoes, golf clubs, cars, cookware, clothing, furniture, you name it. It’s a weird paradoxical side-effect of consumerism. We’ve been suckered into thinking we need crap that we don’t, and the only way to stretch to it is to opt for the far away sweatshop version. But for the one or two favourite “hobbies” that double as identity projections, there is the usually western premium version which of course has to be steeped in notions of tradition and craftsmanship. Hello Gibson, Fender, Harley Davidson, Ferrari, Neff, SMEG, and on and on. All of whom do make some pretty good stuff, but you can do a lot better for your money by looking elsewhere.

rze99

Yawn

Kurtis

tekbow said:

Kurtis said:

tekbow said:

PFAllen2 said:

Historical precedent? There is am implied caché about inventing something first, or making it for a long time. It harks back to the notion of the good ole days, when things were built to last, done properly etc.

I agree with this, and there was a point when US mass produced guitars were the most developed in terms of build, fit, finish, ergonomics, and aesthetics.

But everyone else long since caught up.

I think the Japanese surpassed them at any given price point a long time ago.

But what the Japanese don't have, for most of their brands are the mythos that was built up, and that counts for a lot in many buyer's heads

What makes the Japanese ones better? 

Generally a Japanese guitar of equivalent material spec tends to have better build, fit, finish, and is cheaper. Bang per buck basically. Although the gap in prices has been closing recently depending on branding.

and consistency of the above factors too.

Hmmm, but is saying Japanese builders are better than American builders not the same as saying American are better than Mexican?