Building a performance setlist without duplicating patches - does anything do this?

TheBigDipper

I've put this here because although I'd really like to put it in the FX section and the modelling section, I think I should keep it to one post. 

 I'm a fairly happy user of a pedalboard and effects, controlled through a Boss ES-5 switcher. I haven't (so far) found a modeller I really like to play through (despite totally wanting the convenience when going to practice and gigs). I sing and play when performing, so I don't really have time to get off the mic and look down at the pedalboard to tapdance or select a specific preset.

The way I've got the ES-5 set up is to have a "setlist" of presets, in the order we've decided to play our songs. Typically 15-20 original songs in a single set. The performance workflow I've settled on is to have two presets per song - one for the verse and the other for the chorus (or solo or whatever). I have one footswitch on the ES-5 set to load the next (or the previous) preset. In my case, it's the FS5 footswitch. 

When I'm playing the verse and want to switch to my solo sound, I press FS5 and it loads the next preset in the ES-5. 
When I'm finished with the solo, I press FS5 and it loads the previous preset (the verse). 
When I finish the song, I load the next preset for the next song and so it goes... 

I'm often using the same preset sounds for a specific sort of tone - for instance, I have one for a clean rhythm with a slight chorus. It's used in several songs. I therefore have it defined in the ES-5 several times, including the MIDI commands it sends to a couple of pedals. If I change something in that preset on the ES-5, I have to find and change all the other copies of that in the setlist. What I'd like is something similar to "stompbox" or "favourites" in Boss or Line 6 modellers. I'd like the setlist to refer back to a particular preset, only change the preset once when I adjust something and have my setlist use the latest version. 

Does anything out there do this? Either switchers, MIDI controllers (with loop boxes) or modellers? 

Roland

TheBigDipper said:

I've put this here because although I'd really like to put it in the FX section and the modelling section …

It’s predominantly a live performance issue, so here’s a good place for it.

It’s a challenge I’ve had to tackle with all digital gear over the last twenty something years, using: GT-8, then AxeFX with FCB1010, MFC, and currently FC-12. 

I'm a great believer in keeping things simple for the listener. So I have one basic set of amp sounds: Clean, Edge, Crunch, Lead, and an Acoustic simulation. These are common across all patches. For years I was able a standard midi board, with Clean, Edge etc across the bottom row, and the ability to kick in Chorus, Delay, Drive, Mid Boost, Tuner across the top row.

When we started playing with a keyboard player (this would be about 2011) it gave me the freedom to use more complex arrangements. I found the need to temper some patches to songs, and quickly ended up with about six patches. Each patch was still built from the original base patch. With the GT-8 I added two external buttons for changing to next or previous patch. The more recent boards have enough switches. I guess the difference between this approach and what you’re doing is that my five sounds are all held within the same patch. This means that I can jump directly there rather than stepping back and forward.

In addition to playing I also operate our lighting, using pedals to change colour ways and patterns. With the MFC I was able to ditch the separate lighting pedal board, and use midi messages driven by the bottom row buttons. I no longer needed to have colour changes written into the setlist.

A year or so back Fractal introduced a SetList function. This gave me the opportunity to make things far simpler on stage. My five bottom row buttons are now Intro, Verse, Chorus, Solo, Outro. I took the opportunity to change to one patch per song. My board has Next/Previous buttons on the top row. The FC-12 conveniently tells me what the next and previous song names are. Lighting changes are programmed into each song or verse/chorus/etc change. I no longer have to think “does this Verse need Delay?” or “which colourway is this song?”, and can concentrate on playing.

One other thing I’ve done is to introduce a hidden scene which loads automatically with each new song. I don’t have a button to switch to it directly, although I can achieve it by pressing Next and then Previous. The hidden scene brings our lighting to a quiescent state. It also has a delay set to song tempo. So if I’m starting the song I can hit the strings once to get a click, then switch to Intro.

TheBigDipper

@Roland Thanks for taking the time to write that. Appreciated. 

rsvmark

ES8 user here.

i use a dedicated bank per song. I always have my ‘intro’ patch on preset 1, verse patch on preset 2, pre chorus on 3, solo on 4. That covers every song in the set except one which has six presets but same principle applies and because it’s not the same as the others, I only have 1 variation to remember. Footswitches 1-4 are labelled with intro, verse etc labels so it’s idiot proof. I also have reminders in the name of the intro patch to tweak a pedal. For example, KOTR is a reminder to use the King of tone red side, as opposed to green or both. I also use the display on the mode where it shows you which loops are on and off for a visual check.

Then the banks are arranged in set order so it’s a simple bank up after each song to load the next batch of presets. I keep master presets in alphabetical order from bank 25-40 and simply use the editor to copy and paste prior to each gig. OCD? Possibly…. Need to get out more? Definitely 

Hope that helps

Roland

rsvmark said:

OCD?

Basic common sense approach to keeping it simple to use whilst playing.

TheBigDipper

rsvmark said:

ES8 user here.

i use a dedicated bank per song. I always have my ‘intro’ patch on preset 1, verse patch on preset 2, pre chorus on 3, solo on 4. That covers every song in the set except one which has six presets but same principle applies and because it’s not the same as the others, I only have 1 variation to remember. Footswitches 1-4 are labelled with intro, verse etc labels so it’s idiot proof. I also have reminders in the name of the intro patch to tweak a pedal. For example, KOTR is a reminder to use the King of tone red side, as opposed to green or both. I also use the display on the mode where it shows you which loops are on and off for a visual check.

Then the banks are arranged in set order so it’s a simple bank up after each song to load the next batch of presets. I keep master presets in alphabetical order from bank 25-40 and simply use the editor to copy and paste prior to each gig. OCD? Possibly…. Need to get out more? Definitely 

Hope that helps

It's pretty much what I do, too, and the easiest way I've found to perform with an ES-x when you're busy onstage. The ES-5 isn't the sexiest device and the user interface is an acquired taste, as is the app for computer editing, but it's the best for me that I've found so far. 

PolarityMan

The Boss GT-10 had  a mechanism for doing this if I remember rightly, you  could basically use  a per block preset in your patch. 

JMS96

I tried to do this with an HX Stomp in snapshot mode - using presets per song and snapshots for different parts of the song. Gave up for the reasons you mention. You can’t really tweak, and over time the levels just end up all over the place. I have a covers band with keys so I can’t really do with just ‘clean’, ‘crunch’ and ‘lead’. I now use it in stomp mode with just 2-3 presents to toggle through depending on the what effects each song requires. It’s less than ideal and I haven’t really found a better way to do this.

Trude

The GT1000 (and Core) have a "stompbox" feature which basically means you can have up to 10 global profiles for each effect block, which are always kept in sync across multiple patches.

So you can have any of your standard "bread and butter" sounds that you use in multiple songs, and you can sprinkle them into any song-specific patches and they'll sound consistent.

The way I normally work is I have one standard patch that covers 80% of the stuff I play.  Then I have a couple of duplicates of that with some variations like slapback delay, splashier reverb etc, and a bunch of song-specific patches.  I don't have to worry about keeping all that in sync with any changes I make to my main sounds as they populate through to all the patches where they're used.

On top of that, I also use the OnSong app for lyrics/set lists.  Through a system of global MIDI presets I can set up which patch I want for each song, and they get called up instantly over Bluetooth as I go through the set.  I do this for multiple devices - GT1000, SY-200 and VE-500 for vocals - all of them switching through multiple combinations as I go through the songs.  It allows me to get really nerdy and precise with my settings, without ever getting bogged down with switching on stage.  It has been a gamechanger for me, and lets me concentrate on keeping the crowd engaged as I go through a set.

Trude

Oh, and it's really easy to re-arrange your set list order using the iPad too.  If you use a page turner pedal you don't need to have the thing visible on your mic stand either if you want to keep it out of the way.  Much easier than trying to move patches around on a floor unit!

LionAquaLooper

You sing and play guitar and your typical setlist on any given gig consists of 15 to 20 original songs?? Are you John Mayer in disguise?? Can I get your autograph pls?  

TheBigDipper

LionAquaLooper said:

You sing and play guitar and your typical setlist on any given gig consists of 15 to 20 original songs?? Are you John Mayer in disguise?? Can I get your autograph pls?  

Hah! :-) Just seen this, @LionAquaLooper .

Nothing so glamorous or appealing, I'm afraid. I'm writing and playing with a drummer and bass player. None of us are interested in covers and we no longer want to gig more than 10-12 times a year. So that results in low key gigs where we play for an hour or so and please ourselves.  

So it's like John Mayer, just without the good looks, fans, income and ability.