Brainwashing

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Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
edited April 12 in Off Topic
I've been reading this book and it got me thinking. How would you know if you have been brainwashed or "nudged"?

   
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  • goldtopgoldtop Frets: 6197
    Vintage65 said:
    I've been reading this book and it got me thinking. How would you know if you have been brainwashed or "nudged"?


    The Bible?

    That's a serious answer, BTW.
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  • KeikoKeiko Frets: 1023
    If you have watched the news.
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  • merlinmerlin Frets: 6757
    I would know that I hadn't been brainwashed because they would have induced a knowledge that I had free thinking. 

    I recommend "The Lottery in Babylon" by Jorge Luis Borges. 
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  • Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
    edited April 12
    goldtop said:
    Vintage65 said:
    I've been reading this book and it got me thinking. How would you know if you have been brainwashed or "nudged"?


    The Bible?

    That's a serious answer, BTW.
    Sorry, I had a problem posting the image. I don't think it would be easy to slip the Bible past most people, as you would have to willingly accept it and adopt is as part of your belief system. I'm talking about tricky stuff, being manipulated by people you don't even know without giving it a second thought.
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  • droflufdrofluf Frets: 3777
    When the good people of the fretboard kidnap me and take me away to the secret  TFB De-Programming centre*.  

    *just round the corner from the cooler
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  • LionAquaLooperLionAquaLooper Frets: 1152
    I once saw a magic show on TV where the magician influenced people into doing or wanting stuff just by repeatedly dropping key words in his conversations with them, or having visual cues in the person's eyeline etc. Was really impressive and scary. Then I thought we are bombarded by this kind of strategic and targeted hypnosis everywhere we go by marketing companies.

    So my answer is no, you wouldn't know if you've been manipulated. It's so ingrained in our daily lives that the real question hs become "would you genuinely know if you've actually made a decision devoid of any external influence?" 
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  • GrunfeldGrunfeld Frets: 4046
    edited April 12
    Vintage65 said:
    I've been reading this book and it got me thinking. How would you know if you have been brainwashed or "nudged"?
      
    For me, I take it as a foregone conclusion that I, like everyone else, is always open to suggestion -- we're social beings.
    Nudges and brainwashing are at opposite ends of the persuasion spectrum I suppose.  A nudge is a suggestion with no obvious incentive for you.  It's a text reminder for your doctor's appointment; or it's a message that you're better off with a vaccine; or it's a reminder to save in a pension.  But you can take it or leave it.  You're not getting rewarded for taking it and you're not getting penalised for leaving it.  EDIT Meant to add: but a nudge is supposed to be targeted to a group you've shown are likely to respond.  It's not a scatter-gun approach.  e.g. that vaccine message will be different for different target groups.

    Brain washing is persuasion on steroids.  But people don't join cults through aggressive coercion, they're seduced into them.  Their vulnerabilities are exploited, beliefs dismantled and re-made ("your family are no good for you. We are your family.")  Brain washing describes methods to get people to identify with their beliefs.  

    How would you know? 
    That's the fundamental question of epistemology isn't it?  How do we know what we know?  How do we know what truth is?  Is there a method for finding true beliefs? 
    There's a lot of philosophy and psychology on this! 
    I'm re-reading Gadamer at the moment:  Truth and Method.  Not going to pretend it's an easy read but it's a well-argued case for an interpretive perspective on truth which does not veer into relativism.  My scientific leanings want to say that the method of following the evidence is what's most important -- but it's good to be challenged.
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  • Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
    I once saw a magic show on TV where the magician influenced people into doing or wanting stuff just by repeatedly dropping key words in his conversations with them, or having visual cues in the person's eyeline etc. Was really impressive and scary. Then I thought we are bombarded by this kind of strategic and targeted hypnosis everywhere we go by marketing companies.

    So my answer is no, you wouldn't know if you've been manipulated. It's so ingrained in our daily lives that the real question hs become "would you genuinely know if you've actually made a decision devoid of any external influence?" 
    Being on the internet must be a whole lot worse. I seem to recall it was originally established by the Advanced Research Projects Agency at the US Dept of Defence.
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  • rze99rze99 Frets: 2370

    I know for sure I've been brainwashed. 

    The way I was educated - Protestant, hard-work, anti-Vatican/Pope, Britain is Great and the best in the world and all that, was straightforward indoctrination.

    Luckily, I've spent a lot of time working internationally and have been able to live multiple other perspectives.


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  • Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
    edited April 12
    Grunfeld said:
    How would you know? 
    That's the fundamental question of epistemology isn't it?  How do we know what we know?  How do we know what truth is?  Is there a method for finding true beliefs? 
    There's a lot of philosophy and psychology on this! 
    I'm re-reading Gadamer at the moment:  Truth and Method.  Not going to pretend it's an easy read but it's a well-argued case for an interpretive perspective on truth which does not veer into relativism.  My scientific leanings want to say that the method of following the evidence is what's most important -- but it's good to be challenged.
    You probably know that Bernays was related to Sigmund Freud? I got into the subject after watching the Adam Curtis documentary The Century of the Self, and then I found his Propaganda book on the Internet Archive. It's a bit of a rabbit hole once you get going.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/p0720m7r/the-century-of-the-self-1-happiness-machines
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  • scrumhalfscrumhalf Frets: 11364
    I have not been brainwashed.
    I have not been brainwashed.
    I have not been brainwashed.
    I have not been brainwashed.

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  • TimcitoTimcito Frets: 806
    I think if you knew you'd been brainwashed, in most cases, you wouldn't actually be brainwashed. 
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  • Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
    edited April 12
    rze99 said:

    I know for sure I've been brainwashed. 

    The way I was educated - Protestant, hard-work, anti-Vatican/Pope, Britain is Great and the best in the world and all that, was straightforward indoctrination.

    Luckily, I've spent a lot of time working internationally and have been able to live multiple other perspectives.
    Yeah, I've spent some time in different countries, and it certainly helps perspective wise, but I also noticed all countries go through cycles, so there is no perfect place.
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  • Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
    edited April 14
    Timcito said:
    I think if you knew you'd been brainwashed, in most cases, you wouldn't actually be brainwashed. 
    I used to have the Guardian delivered and I watched Newsnight every evening, and I thought I knew everything. Then the Iraq thing happened, and looking back I think that may have been a turning point, but it's been a slow journey to even think about questioning anything. I guess being content with life makes you complacent to a certain degree.
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  • SporkySporky Frets: 28753
    I've been brainwashed. My brother once sprayed me with a hose and it went straight up my nose. Never thought clearer than that day. 
    "[Sporky] brings a certain vibe and dignity to the forum."
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  • Paul_CPaul_C Frets: 7854

    I have no BUY ME A TELECASTER idea, I'm afraid.
    "I'll probably be in the bins at Newport Pagnell services."  fretmeister
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  • Vintage65Vintage65 Frets: 346
    edited April 12
    Paul_C said:
    I have no BUY ME A TELECASTER idea, I'm afraid.
    No problem, thanks for responding anyway. If we ever bump into each other at a tFB jam session I will let you try my Telecaster.
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  • KurtisKurtis Frets: 745
    edited April 12
    Sporky said:
    I've been brainwashed. My brother once sprayed me with a hose and it went straight up my nose. Never thought clearer than that day. 
    I experienced the same thing once when I went down a water slide and the water went up my arse. 


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  • RevolutionsRevolutions Frets: 248
    edited April 12
    I think you’d need to define brainwashing.

    Marketing & social media companies use psychological quirks to influence and persuade. As do pick-up artists, magicians, governments, negotiators, coaches and therapists. Hardly brainwashing, even when the intent is malign it’s only subtle & it doesn’t work well on everyone.

    the real brainwashing is all the weird societal & cultural conditioning that have zero evolutionary benefit: clothes to cover sexual organs rather than warmth, sitting down to shit etc…
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  • swillerswiller Frets: 1315
    I think musk has taken brainwashing up a level. He is the foam lance of brainwashing. 
    Dont worry, be silly.
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