Clapton

Barnezy

The question wasn’t “why does Clapton get so much stick for his music?”. I don’t think his contribution to music is ever in doubt. 

But the question was “why does he get so much stick” followed by “he had a hard upbringing and I like him more after watching his documentary”. 

He’s made it on to Mojo’s Top 10 Most Evil Musicians, so that’s proof enough for me he’s a scumbag. https://youtu.be/1dP2NAPyado

Anyway I’m off to listen to my Gary Glitter, Rolf Harris, Lost Prophets, R Kelly playlist…. Judge them by their music guys, who cares what they’ve done. 

Snags

The racism ... well, people's views can change and evolve over the years. I know I don't feel the same on some hot topics now as I did in my twenties, and am embarrassed by conversations past-me had, so I can't crucify him for that. 

But.

He wrote Wonderful Tonight. Which is a fucking smug, hateful, misogynistic piece of turgid dross that so, so, so many pub performers trot out as a romantic finisher and for that he can never find redemption. 

LionAquaLooper

shaunm said:

Regarding the racist outburst. After that point have black artists shunned him? Looking at the crossroads festivals, the albums with BB, the friendship with Buddy and numerous others indicate they haven’t. Who knows what went on behind closed doors but presumably something did. 

That's a very long winded way of saying "he can't be racist....he has black friends". SMH.

Its not a knock on you mate. But don't let his association with black artists fool you. Racism is not as simple as that. Even Hitler married a jewish woman. The fact those artists still associated with him speaks more about their character than his i.e they're more forgiving and tolerant than he is.

OilCityPickups

snowblind said:

we get to thank Erwin Schrodinger for a lot of quantum mechanics and thus electronics and physics upon which we absolutely depend but at the same time his unhealthy interest in very young girls is glossed over. 

I won't forgive him for being a Cnut to cats personally  ...

shaunm

LionAquaLooper said:

shaunm said:

Regarding the racist outburst. After that point have black artists shunned him? Looking at the crossroads festivals, the albums with BB, the friendship with Buddy and numerous others indicate they haven’t. Who knows what went on behind closed doors but presumably something did. 

That's a very long winded way of saying "he can't be racist....he has black friends". SMH.

It’s not a knock on you mate. But don't let his association with black artists fool you. Racism is not as simple as that. Even Hitler married a jewish woman. The fact those artists still associated with him speaks more about their character than his i.e they're more forgiving and tolerant than he is.

It’s more me saying that as a white man im not going to take offence on behalf of the black men that reconciled with what he did. He may well have had long lengthy chats with those friends who helped him see the error of his ways. 

Jez6345789

I always love these Clapton threads the rightous political, correctness, he did x or did y
I am not a big Clapton fan musically he has been there my whole life and there are times I have dipped in and listened to him and I was lucky enough to get a front row ticket from my Daughter for a big birthday and undoubtedly when challenged as he was with having Derek Trucks in the band at the time he can bring a surprising A game as a blue rocker. 

I always think its easy sitting on the side lines and moralising about celebrities and their behaviour when Clapton gets mentioned this places turns into the Daily Mail it really does.

The reality to me is Clapton was a pretty dysfunctional illegitimate kid brought up in a weird family dynamic and then had adulation and success thrown at him and the monicker of being god. Much of what followed for years was an industry and an era that encouraged and enabled their stars to live all kinds of excess as long as they kept the machine running. Somehow Clapton manged to navigate that even through his slim years. The industry allowed him to most of the time bury his demons. In the end that stuff comes back and I have always seen Claptons outbursts, racist vaccine etc being that he simply is trying to find answers to what ails him so he ends up getting shit face with a load of land owning country types who sprout racist shit till it makes some sense to the kid who grew up being called the basted combined with the endless chip on his should gets drunk and blows up a concert. Yes he continues to fuck up.

I have no doubt he and many like him are just some of lifes fuck ups that have spent there lives trying to do the right thing and failing. He has the trappings of wealth from his music but  by his own admission until his latter years and loads of rehab and therapy and working with Crossroads has never really been able to express himself emotionally, 

For all those who like to throw shade at these threads through a modern politically correct lens. If Clapton was some news paper wrapped, down and out in cardboard city you would happily be throwing money in his jar and feeling sorry for his arse. 

The trappings of wealth and money have made him no less a screw up than the next person with issues. 

Yeah sure its hard to feel sorry for the guy on his yacht

PPPMAT

Clapton is probably my biggest musical influence - between the years of 66-69. During those years he was very good and was doing things that were new for the time. I think he great feel and tone and then he picked up a strat and I lost all interest. I really do think cream burnt him out.

Lestratcaster

I'm actually reading his autobiography at the moment. Interesting read. He's the one who got me into playing strats (I know he played a Les Paul in Cream though). Mostly uses pentatonics, can't think that's why he gets alot of hate though. Very good blues player and singer.
But yeah as maybe mentioned before maybe its his political views and such that divide opinion.

blueskunk

Sarge said:

blueskunk said:

He was pissed as a fart and eating Colombian Marching powder like sugar, in the midst of a dark time in life. I’m gonna forgive him, the good outways the bad, he’s built rehab centres for addicts etc. 

It’s official. Eric gets a pass.  

Thats odd, because myself and millions of others like me have been blind drunk and under the influence of white powders amd never once uttered a racist slur.

Oh he's got enough money to buy a pass? riiiiight 
Wrong. 
he sucks as a person and his music is beyond boring. 

Ah cos you didn’t do enough Captain  

As a recovering addict, I have said and done the most horrible things in my darkest days.  Oh yeah, I have been called a Wog Paki and all sorts of shit back in the day. Some of the folks who I used to fight with as a kid have thankfully grown to be very cool human beings.  

I have a very good friend , in fact my best friend who’s an old school socialist worker party hippy stoner- he fkn hates Eric and is all about Rock against Racism. 

Eric’s work in Cream is some of my favourite music ever. That Fool SG !!

fretmeister

Devil#20 said:

HT986M2 said:

Devil#20 said:

LionAquaLooper said:

Great guitarist. Fking bigot. Almost 50 years since his racist tirade in Birmingham and countless opportunities to own up and apologise. But nothing. Just laughs it off because he was "drunk". 

I don't like racism but don't know anything about what he said. Maybe you can point me in the direction. I might not like what he's said and that may detract from who he is but doesn't necessarily detract from the music he's made. One of the best in my opinion. Maybe we should have another thread on what a POS he was. Dunno. 

https://faroutmagazine.co.uk/eric-clapton-racist-outburst-details/

There you go.

“Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out,” exclaimed Clapton to his captive audience. “Get the w*gs out. Get the c**ns out. Keep Britain white."

“Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands. So where are you? Well, wherever you are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country. I don’t want you here, in the room or in my country.”

In response to that, a cultural movement in music was triggered:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock_Against_Racism

Just had a look at that and yes he isn't a nice person is he. However, divorce yourself from that. I don't think any musician should mix their music with politics or religion. He was, however, a brilliant guitarist in my opinion. That's the subject of my OP. 

So you want to delete all of Bob Dylan, Neil Young, Mozart then?
However - being racist isn't politics. It's just being racist.


But - how do you feel about domestic violence and rape?

From the wiki, and from a Sunday Times interview:

Clapton became friends with George Harrison in the late 1960s and they began writing and recording music together. Clapton fell in love with Pattie Boyd who was married to Harrison at this time.[192] Harrison and Boyd divorced in 1977 and she married Clapton on 27 March 1979, in Tucson, Arizona.[193] Their marriage was marred by his infidelities and domestic violence. During a 1999 interview with The Sunday Times, Clapton admitted to raping and abusing her while they were married and he was a "full-blown" alcoholic who felt entitled to sex.[194] 

Before heading down the "well, we don't really know what happens behind closed doors..." path - he admitted it. There's nothing to misunderstand about.

None of this has anything to do with politics or religion.

He's just a really nasty human being.

fretmeister

Revolutions said:

Clapton needs to be taken in context, imo. Imagine being a superstar at 18. You’ve never grown up, you don’t know what being a normal person really feels like. Just like Harrison & Dylan, who’ve famously been awful to others.

What he said was abhorrent. No way around that. Questionable political views that are popular can be somewhat forgiven out of hand - we’re easily influenced. Spouting those views on a stage in front of huge audience is less easy to forgive. And yet, Clapton has been sober for 40 years. Unless you’re in a similar position, it’s difficult to understand how utterly hard that it is to achieve. I hear stories from ex-addicts almost every day that are far worse, and these are stand-up people who I can’t imagine being the person they describe. 

Anti-vaccine was a choice lots of people made. History won’t treat those people well, and for good reason. It doesn’t sit well with me, but then neither do a lot of the views of my uncles & grandparents. My life is too short to waste energy on things I can’t influence like entrenched political views. My choice is to either engage or not engage with them as people. I usually choose the former as most people are, for the most part, doing what they think is the right thing.

We’re all flawed. I err on being open to forgiveness. YMMV, of course.

I'm a strong believer in rehabilitation.

When he hands himself into the police for the admitted rape of Patty Boyd he can go to prison and that process can start.

fretmeister

shaunm said:

Emp_Fab said:

I dunno.  I think that if it's the music you like that the person makes then who gives a shit who they are ?  You have to be able to separate the art from the artist in my opinion.  Whether I'd pay money for their music if they, the person, benefitted financially from it, is another thing. 

There must be a line that you use with that opinion? Garry Glitter and R Kelly for instance.

 I understand what you are saying though. I guess it’s a personal take on what you can separate from the artist and person.

I think the line shifts when they have been dead for long enough.

Rachmaninov made a lot of money from the slave trade. As disgusting as it is to us now it was legal then and me buying an album is not going to benefit him in the slightest. Me buying an album now is not endorsing / supporting him in the slightest.

While they are still alive, or indeed died in recent memory, then that's a pretty solid line.

victorludorum

fretmeister said:

shaunm said:

Emp_Fab said:

I dunno.  I think that if it's the music you like that the person makes then who gives a shit who they are ?  You have to be able to separate the art from the artist in my opinion.  Whether I'd pay money for their music if they, the person, benefitted financially from it, is another thing. 

There must be a line that you use with that opinion? Garry Glitter and R Kelly for instance.

 I understand what you are saying though. I guess it’s a personal take on what you can separate from the artist and person.

I think the line shifts when they have been dead for long enough.

Rachmaninov made a lot of money from the slave trade. As disgusting as it is to us now it was legal then and me buying an album is not going to benefit him in the slightest. Me buying an album now is not endorsing / supporting him in the slightest.

While they are still alive, or indeed died in recent memory, then that's a pretty solid line.

Have you got any Zeppelin or Aerosmith in your CD collection?

pluckbuddy

Even his tone sounds vaguely misogynistic 

RocknRollDave

For me, it’s because of his playing.
He doesn’t seem to have much harmonic awareness in his soloing, and often doesn’t seem to land the end of a phrase on a note that seems like ‘home’ or that seems to resolve the tension of the phrase. Or to put it another way, he ends up on notes that sound amateurish to me.

Is he an awful guitarist? No.
Are there millions of more harmonically interesting players out there? Absolutely.

fretmeister

victorludorum said:

fretmeister said:

shaunm said:

Emp_Fab said:

I dunno.  I think that if it's the music you like that the person makes then who gives a shit who they are ?  You have to be able to separate the art from the artist in my opinion.  Whether I'd pay money for their music if they, the person, benefitted financially from it, is another thing. 

There must be a line that you use with that opinion? Garry Glitter and R Kelly for instance.

 I understand what you are saying though. I guess it’s a personal take on what you can separate from the artist and person.

I think the line shifts when they have been dead for long enough.

Rachmaninov made a lot of money from the slave trade. As disgusting as it is to us now it was legal then and me buying an album is not going to benefit him in the slightest. Me buying an album now is not endorsing / supporting him in the slightest.

While they are still alive, or indeed died in recent memory, then that's a pretty solid line.

Have you got any Zeppelin or Aerosmith in your CD collection?

No.

I did have a single of 'Love in an Elevator' but I have no idea what happened to it. I don't own a record player anymore.


EDIT:

It does lead to a good question though. If I bought an album as a teenager should I chuck it now after I learn something? Or is that a stupid waste to chuck it?

Should it be based on admissions and convictions only or on rumours and hints?

What about consuming the music in a way that does not benefit the artist? It's easy enough to get a used CD from a charity shop so no benefit goes to the artist. It's also easy to find free music on the web and not use something like youtube or spotify that benefits the artist.

I do have a monster CD collection - most of it in the attic now. I've never catalogued it.
I have no doubt if I went looking there would be some very unsavoury people involved in some of them.

I'm not going to beat myself up over owning something I bought before I knew.
But that doesn't mean I'd find it acceptable for me to buy anything new from them after the date of knowledge.

It's definitely up the individual whether they want to support an individual, but I'm not going to be shy about pointing out what an individual might have done - particularly if there has been no remorse or submission to authority / rehabilitation etc.

BillDL

It's just as well Savile wasn't a notable guitar player or it would have presented a huge dilemma 

OilCityPickups

BillDL said:

It's just as well Savile wasn't a notable guitar player or it would have presented a huge dilemma 

To be honest I don't think we are anywhere near knowing the extent of the exploitation of groupies etc that went on in the sixties, seventies and perhaps to a lesser extent the eighties.  Lori Maddox was the tip of a huge iceberg that is being largely ignored or glossed around.  

pluckbuddy

I stare at Caravaggios in complete wonderment and he killed someone, and yet on the other i feel less like saying I'm a Clapton fan these days. Give me a few hundred years and I might go back to old Slowfingers i suppose. 

But back to the racism. I can forgive things people say at bad times in their lives. It happens. It shouldn't define someone for the rest of their lives. But I think the apology I heard from him after he'd presumably sobbered up and had time to think about it left me feeling uncomfortable. If i remember correctly it was along the lines of what I think of as the Ron Atknison racism defence i.e. he says "how can I be racist after all I've done for Black music?" or "footballers" in Ron's case. Seems a bit entitled and even narcissistic. What about what Black music has done for you Eric? 

snowblind

It's part of societal development. We look back at 70s tv and cringe because in theory we have learned and grown since then.
Do we discard information simply because it runs contrary to some other deeply held opinion or belief? Where the line is drawn is subjective of course. Those who argue that Hitler had some good ideas so he can't be all bad are probably straying onto the wrong side of the line that most others would draw. Clapton gets flack for not being a particularly wonderful human being and for not always being the most interesting guitarist all the time. No denying he has influenced others in a positive way but at the same time it isn't always easy to overlook the misdemeanors that go along with his history. The Savile reference above is apposite. Ultimately all the good works can't disguise the bad things. If you can divorce the music from the man and just enjoy it for what it is then where's the fault? We have to compartmentalise so many things just to exist. I can listen to Badge in the context of it simply being sound and not consider at the same time that it came from a man with otherwise diverse character flaws. The tune with which I have an issue these days is Rainbow's "All night long" which to me encapsulates misogyny bordering on peadophilia (if you've ever really listened to the lyrics). Not sure that makes Blackmore a terrible guitarist though.
I would hazard the opinion that he is more interesting than Clapton so maybe he could be forgiven a few murders before he becomes persona non grata.