Parking Charge Notice.... appeal?

roundthebend

I dropped my band mate off the other night at 10:30pm. He lives on a busy road next to a petrol station so I often pull into the forecourt and we chat for a few minutes. On this occasion we chatted for 45 minutes.

I've had a PCN arrive in the post. I know these things are often run on fairly unreasonable terms, but I think I have a fair dispute. I wasn't parked, the garage was shut, I wasn't in anyone's way, I had the engine running the whole time because I expected to just finish chatting and then drive off as usual.

What's the current advice? Do I just appeal it direct with the PCN issuing firm?

AlbertC

I don’t think the engine running is any kind of mitigation in itself, but I’d certainly appeal against it on the principle that you weren’t causing an obstruction. Were there any notices displayed saying parking was prohibited or warning it was an offence?

roundthebend

AlbertC said:

I don’t think the engine running is any kind of mitigation in itself, but I’d certainly appeal against it on the principle that you weren’t causing an obstruction. Were there any notices displayed saying parking was prohibited or warning it was an offence?

No idea. I wasn't intending to stop for long, so I didn't check. Turns out we got chatting, but I wasn't in anyone's way so didn't think anything of it.

It's not an offence as far as I'm aware. I think this area has some problems all through the day and they're trying to clamp down on it.

S56035

Some places have "no idle" zones but don't think that's relevant here.  I don't think you can describe a car stationary for 45 minutes as anything other than parked.  Probably best to get back and see what the signage looks like as that'll be your only come back I reckon. 

Without wanting to be a dick, you parked on their property for 45minutes so they feel they can charge you i.e. it's an invoice not a fine, it's not about causing an obstruction either.  I'm 99% sure the land owners don't give a shit (as they shouldn't as the place was shut) but they've outsourced the worry to some shitty firm who's job it is to catch you out which unfortunately it sounds like they've done.  This place may be of help - http://www.pepipoo.com/

Kittyfrisk

It's a private charge not a legal fine, I'd be inclined to ignore it or call their bluff.
https://www.money.co.uk/guides/do-you-have-to-pay-private-parking-tickets
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/parking-tickets-on-private-land-s/
https://www.consumercouncil.org.uk/sites/default/files/2019-01/Private_Parking_Charges_Factsheet.pdf

RaymondLin

Like @S56035 says, it's an invoice, not a fine.

You can challenge the invoice, but they can also challenge you in court.  Just imagine who would win?

Car with engine running? Irrelevant.
Not obstructing anyone? Irrelevant.  It's a parking charge, not a fine for obstruction.
Chatting to your friend and there the whole time? Irrelevant.
Not realised of the time because you got carried away chatting? Irrelevant.

What is relevant is you were there for 45mins and now you got billed for it.

I would pay it and move on.

S56035

Kittyfrisk said:

It's a private charge not a legal fine, I'd be inclined to ignore it & call their bluff.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/private-parking-tickets/
https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/scotland/law-and-courts/parking-tickets/parking-tickets-on-private-land-s/
https://www.consumercouncil.org.uk/sites/default/files/2019-01/Private_Parking_Charges_Factsheet.pdf

I think the ignoring advice has changed as firms are following through to court a lot more than they used to.  Eventually the debt may be sold to a collection company who will give even less of a shit about the reason for the original charge.  I'd pay up, have a beer to get over it and move on.

One of those links is for Scotland so may not  be applicable and none of them suggest you've got a leg to stand on I'm afraid OP.

Cols

Harsh - and annoying,, as it’s out of hours - but at 45 minutes you don’t have much of a leg to stand on.  If the signs were inconspicuous or unclear you could try that angle.

Your only other option would be to have a word with the manager of the garage directly and see if they might weigh in on your side and get the PCN company to call it off.  However, as you’re just using their forecourt for a handy drop off point and not blessing them with your custom they may not be motivated to bail you out.

I wouldn’t ignore it though.  You’d be gambling that they’d not pursue it - if they did and went to court, you’d lose and risk a higher fine and their expenses.

strumjoughlamps

Thread hijack..

my Wife has just received a £100 PCN from who manages East Midlands Airport..  shows her stopped in a lane for 32 seconds with 2 big road signs in front of her.. She was reading where to go to pick up my lad from the airport, found the way to go then picked my lad up paid the £6 (contactless so have proof) as it was less than 15 mins and went..

reason for charge is no stopping in a stopping area, she is literally in a lane, does that mean when the place is super busy and traffic is stop/start 1000s of cars get this PCN??

chris78

In my own experience, the parking firms can occasionally be reasonable so it’s worth an appeal.

I pulled into a hotel carpark to take a call. I parked in the first available space, was there for circa 20 mins and got a pcn.
I appealed on the basis that there was so sign entering the car park to say it’s restricted, I never left the car so couldn’t have seen the signs in other spaces and it was overturned.

Lord_Spanielchip

I appealed one on the basis that I couldn’t see the signs because they weren’t sufficiently illuminated (this was true) and provided evidence that they couldn’t be seen at night in the form of (dark) pictures.

My appeal was refused, as I expected it to be, so I took it to the ombudsman and provided my evidence to them. I won that appeal by default because the parking company didn’t bother to respond to the ombudsman. My personal take is that they rely on people just paying up and can’t be arsed taking it further because it’s too much like hard work for little result.

If you’re prepared to take the possibility of paying the “full” penalty rather than the discount it’s always worth appealing.

S56035

strumjoughlamps said:

Thread hijack..

my Wife has just received a £100 PCN from who manages East Midlands Airport..  shows her stopped in a lane for 32 seconds with 2 big road signs in front of her.. She was reading where to go to pick up my lad from the airport, found the way to go then picked my lad up paid the £6 (contactless so have proof) as it was less than 15 mins and went..

reason for charge is no stopping in a stopping area, she is literally in a lane, does that mean when the place is super busy and traffic is stop/start 1000s of cars get this PCN??Not really the same is it 

Timcito

Car fines, penalties, charges, etc, often strike me as more a source of income for interested parties than cases of right and wrong. Here in Miami, when revenue from offences is low, the police wait in hidden spots to see if they can catch drivers out. They want us to commit some kind of infringement so that they can collect.

SteveRobinson

If you didn't see the signs then no contract has been entered into and they can't charge you.

Just say you didn't see any signs. It worked for me recently when I didn't see any posted notices about parking charges.

Wazmeister

RaymondLin said:

Like @S56035 says, it's an invoice, not a fine.

You can challenge the invoice, but they can also challenge you in court.  Just imagine who would win?

Car with engine running? Irrelevant.
Not obstructing anyone? Irrelevant.  It's a parking charge, not a fine for obstruction.
Chatting to your friend and there the whole time? Irrelevant.
Not realised of the time because you got carried away chatting? Irrelevant.

What is relevant is you were there for 45mins and now you got billed for it.

I would pay it and move on.

This.

Pay it and move on. Stress free and over with.

RobDavies

Wazmeister said:

RaymondLin said:

Like @S56035 says, it's an invoice, not a fine.

You can challenge the invoice, but they can also challenge you in court.  Just imagine who would win?

Car with engine running? Irrelevant.
Not obstructing anyone? Irrelevant.  It's a parking charge, not a fine for obstruction.
Chatting to your friend and there the whole time? Irrelevant.
Not realised of the time because you got carried away chatting? Irrelevant.

What is relevant is you were there for 45mins and now you got billed for it.

I would pay it and move on.

This.

Pay it and move on. Stress free and over with.

Yep.  I’m guessing that by paying quickly, the OP would also be taking advantage of a reduction in the fine, as seems to the case for so many of these private companies.

lustycourtier

strumjoughlamps said:

Thread hijack..

my Wife has just received a £100 PCN from who manages East Midlands Airport..  shows her stopped in a lane for 32 seconds with 2 big road signs in front of her.. She was reading where to go to pick up my lad from the airport, found the way to go then picked my lad up paid the £6 (contactless so have proof) as it was less than 15 mins and went..

reason for charge is no stopping in a stopping area, she is literally in a lane, does that mean when the place is super busy and traffic is stop/start 1000s of cars get this PCN??

What was she checking for 32 seconds in a live lane? her phone? 

RaymondLin

strumjoughlamps said:

Thread hijack..

my Wife has just received a £100 PCN from who manages East Midlands Airport..  shows her stopped in a lane for 32 seconds with 2 big road signs in front of her.. She was reading where to go to pick up my lad from the airport, found the way to go then picked my lad up paid the £6 (contactless so have proof) as it was less than 15 mins and went..

reason for charge is no stopping in a stopping area, she is literally in a lane, does that mean when the place is super busy and traffic is stop/start 1000s of cars get this PCN??

When I got confused at 3am in Gatwick airport and went into the drop off section and incurred a £5 "fee", I didn't even stop at all to drop anyone off....I was too late and entered and kept driving.  Paid anyway.  Actually paid when I was on the bus from the car park to the airport.

S56035

SteveRobinson said:

If you didn't see the signs then no contract has been entered into and they can't charge you.

Just say you didn't see any signs. It worked for me recently when I didn't see any posted notices about parking charges.

The signs not being clear or there at all is a defence but not seeing them isn't. Neither is not looking for them either.

Haych

If it was me I would write to appeal and explain the circumstances, expect the worst but hope for the best.

You have nothing to lose and on the assumption your appeal is not upheld then you're in no worse off situation - that is unless you're on one of those pay up in 10 days and we'll halve the charge type things.

RaymondLin said:

strumjoughlamps said:

Thread hijack..

my Wife has just received a £100 PCN from who manages East Midlands Airport..  shows her stopped in a lane for 32 seconds with 2 big road signs in front of her.. She was reading where to go to pick up my lad from the airport, found the way to go then picked my lad up paid the £6 (contactless so have proof) as it was less than 15 mins and went..

reason for charge is no stopping in a stopping area, she is literally in a lane, does that mean when the place is super busy and traffic is stop/start 1000s of cars get this PCN??

When I got confused at 3am in Gatwick airport and went into the drop off section and incurred a £5 "fee", I didn't even stop at all to drop anyone off....I was too late and entered and kept driving.  Paid anyway.  Actually paid when I was on the bus from the car park to the airport.

I did exactly the same last year, although all the signs for hotels were directing me through the drop off zone.

I paid the charge but emailed NCP immediately after paying stating my error but that I didn't stop - the invoice had my entry and exit time so they could see that for themselves.

I didn't expect them to do anything and it was months before I received an email reply but they understood and refunded the charge.

Funkfingers

Timcito said:

Car fines, penalties, charges, etc, often strike me as more a source of income for interested parties than cases of right and wrong. Here in Miami, when revenue from offences is low, the police wait in hidden spots to see if they can catch drivers out. They want us to commit some kind of infringement so that they can collect.

I live in rural Wales. Periodically, oil refinery turnaround works attract thousands of additional contractors from outside the area. The local constabulary shamelessly tries to fleece the visitors to swell their coffers.