Speaker Advice

BowynMadley

I'm looking for some new speakers but I want them to be as efficient as possible eg. 100db plus. Nothing too mid heavy and I'm not to keen on American voiced stuff. Anything you lot can recommend?
Thanks in advance
Bo

Dave_Mc

Which amp do you want them for? And what wattage? And how many?

Off the top of my head, and ignoring those questions, I'm guessing G12H30 (or the creamback version if you need more wattage, though I've only tried the normal version) or Classic Lead (it's 99dB but I'm not sure there's any difference... Celestions are pretty conservatively rated in the dB stakes anyway).

Or other companies' takes on those speaker types (e.g. Eminence, WGS, Tayden etc.).

ICBM

You won't get anything much higher than 100dB or any louder than a 100dB Celestion, despite what some companies claim.

And if you don't want anything too midrangy that rules out the V30 and probably the Gold.

Which just leaves the G12H-30 and the G12H-75 Creamback really… although like Dave I think the Classic Lead and the G12K-100 are equally loud, despite being listed as 99dB.

I'd also consider a Mesa/Celestion Custom 90 - which is not at all American-voiced  - and is the loudest 12" speaker I've used, no matter what the spec says (I don't know actually).

DarnWeight

Some of Eminence's sensitivities are a bit OTT when racked up against similar Celestions, but some of their heavier magnet offerings might be up your street.  I've had good experiences with the Wizard (G12H30-ish) and Tonker (Fane-ish), and though I've never tried one myself, the Swamp Things get a lot of love.

BowynMadley

I have looked at the wizard. What I really want are the red fang alnicos. 50watts per speaker and 104ish db. Awesome speakers but are 400 quid for a pair which is steep but I may have to bite the bullet if I can't find another pair I love. I'm not adverse to mixing speakers. I have 2 Wgs currently. An et65 and an invader.

hywelg

I have a Red Fang and an EV in the same cab and no way is the RF a genuine 104dB.

BowynMadley

Really? A mate of mine has a pair of red fangs in his cab and its probably the loudest 2x12 I've heard. Don't fancy trading your red fang then @hywelg ?

ICBM

The Eminence dB ratings are at least 3dB exaggerated compared to Celestions. The Red Fang is no louder than a Celestion Blue, and maybe very slightly quieter. Same with all the other ones that are supposedly the same or slightly louder than the equivalent Celestions.

Their power ratings are exaggerated too, by about a third in comparison to the same Celestions - eg a 100W Eminence will blow at about the same power input as a 75W Celestion in my experience. (Jensen even more, and Fane more still - possibly no more than half the quoted power rating compared to Celestion.)

This doesn't mean "Celestion are good" and "Eminence are bad", it's just different ways of measuring and rating things, but you should be aware of it. Although Celestion's ratings are more "real world musician use" than the other makers.

matt1973

In my experience, there's nothing quite like an EVM12L for efficiency.

ICBM

matt1973 said:

In my experience, there's nothing quite like an EVM12L for efficiency.

Agreed, and it's "only" 100dB, which shows how exaggerated the Eminence ratings are as hywelg said.

BowynMadley

I play a lot of heavy blues and rock so I can't imagine I'd get on with ev's as they are so clean

Dave_Mc

ICBM said:

(a) You won't get anything much higher than 100dB or any louder than a 100dB Celestion, despite what some companies claim.

(b) Which just leaves the G12H-30 and the G12H-75 Creamback really… although like Dave I think the Classic Lead and the G12K-100 are equally loud, despite being listed as 99dB.

(c) I'd also consider a Mesa/Celestion Custom 90 - which is not at all American-voiced  - and is the loudest 12" speaker I've used, no matter what the spec says (I don't know actually).

(a) Yeah the V30 is more or less as loud as it gets, I think. I haven't noticed any of the supposedly-higher-rated Eminences sounding any louder, that's for sure.

(b) Yeah. The V30 might sound marginally louder than the classic lead, but I suspect that's because it's middier. It sounds louder than a G12H30 as well, and it's rated at 100dB as well.

I forgot about the G12K100 as I haven't tried it )

(c) Haven't tried that one either.

BowynMadley said:

I have looked at the wizard. What I really want are the red fang alnicos. 50watts per speaker and 104ish db. Awesome speakers but are 400 quid for a pair which is steep but I may have to bite the bullet if I can't find another pair I love. I'm not adverse to mixing speakers. I have 2 Wgs currently. An et65 and an invader.

I have red fang alnicos in my genz benz. They're loud, but I'm not sure they're any louder than a V30, maybe not even as loud. (I'm not sure I've tried them head to head.)

They're also pretty dark-sounding. Like most eminences, they're probably also a little more american-sounding than Celestions (even the ones which are supposedly British-voiced). Not sure they're what you want. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice speaker, just from what you said I'm not sure it's what you want.

If you do want them, though, keep an eye out for Genz Benz Black Pearls (either the combos or the cabinets). GAK was blowing them out a year or two ago (that's how I got mine) for crazy prices, and if you find someone who's looking rid of theirs, you might be able to get a deal on it. My 2x12 combo was only slightly more than two red fangs at retail prices (new), for example (£475 inc. delivery, IIRC; at the time, red fangs were £200 a pop IIRC).

ICBM said:

The Eminence dB ratings are at least 3dB exaggerated compared to Celestions. The Red Fang is no louder than a Celestion Blue, and maybe very slightly quieter. Same with all the other ones that are supposedly the same or slightly louder than the equivalent Celestions.

Their power ratings are exaggerated too, by about a third in comparison to the same Celestions - eg a 100W Eminence will blow at about the same power input as a 75W Celestion in my experience. (Jensen even more, and Fane more still - possibly no more than half the quoted power rating compared to Celestion.)

This doesn't mean "Celestion are good" and "Eminence are bad", it's just different ways of measuring and rating things, but you should be aware of it. Although Celestion's ratings are more "real world musician use" than the other makers.

+1

(I've never blown any speakers but certainly the volume thing is true. I think JPF or someone like that said that the power ratings were suspicious as well, since things like the Private Jack and GB128 were made more or less the same as the celestion greenback (their equivalent), and yet were rated for a much higher wattage.)

BowynMadley

I had a black pearl 1x12 combo until early this year. Would have kept the speaker but it would have killed the resale value. I loved the speaker as it did exactly what I wanted. It didn't have an American voice or British (to my ear) but somewhere in between. Just can't justify the cost currently.

Dave_Mc

LOL

Well I was way off there. ) Sorry about that.

I guess keep an eye out just in case you come across a deal? I'd never suggest spending more money than you have to, but at the same time if you know exactly what you want and end up settling for cheaper options you can end up spending more in the long run and end up having to buy the more expensive thing you wanted anyway...

BowynMadley

This is the dilemma I face. Second hand red fangs appear very rarely (i know someone had one for sale on here earlier this year.) I can't say I'm unhappy with my sound but there's something telling me it could get just that little bit better and be perfect. I may have a mad five minutes and flog a few things that I'm not playing so much and buy some. But then again I may not. Ahhh GAS is such an unforgiving mistress. Why must you taunt me! Why!

Dave_Mc

LOL

And yeah if you've been on the lookout for them used, you'll know far better than I do how often they come up I guess they're dear enough that people don't want to lose a lot selling them on, they just keep them.

BowynMadley

It seems the only time you see them is either someone selling one on its own at a ridiculous price or someone selling a pair in great condition at a brilliant price but the drawback is they live somewhere Fuckin weird like Transylvania or Uzbekistan. Frustrating to say the least

hywelg

BowynMadley said:

Really? A mate of mine has a pair of red fangs in his cab and its probably the loudest 2x12 I've heard. Don't fancy trading your red fang then @hywelg ?

Not a chance ( got mine just before the price hike (think I paid £120 then they went up to £220 and now have dropped back a it).

All I was saying was that in comparison with an EV (100dB, generally accepted as a true value) it isn't louder and at 104dB, (generally accepted that Emi overrate their speakers) it f*****g well ought to be!.

matt1973

BowynMadley;404642" said:

I play a lot of heavy blues and rock so I can't imagine I'd get on with ev's as they are so clean

Zakk Wylde & Joe Bonamassa use EVMs - they deliver across a wide range of styes.

ICBM

hywelg said:

EV (100dB, generally accepted as a true value)

I actually think it's conservative. EVs sound very slightly louder than V30s, to me. I would say about 101dB on the same scale.

I have to say I'm not a fan of the sound, for guitar - I find it too hard and tight. I like them for bass and PA - which was the designed application, the reason they started being used for guitar was that Mesa needed a 12" speaker which would take the power of the 100W Mark series combos after Altecs stopped being made, and they were one of the only speakers that could.

Rating speaker sensitivity is not an exact science. If you look at the response curve of a typical driver (this is the V30)

http://celestion.com/images/products/1/graph.gif

you can see that it varies by around 40dB over the audio range. If you were to take a true average, even Celestion's 100dB looks like an exaggeration, although it does roughly correspond to that broad area in the midrange. But there is a noticeable peak at slightly higher frequencies, where the curve goes up to around 106dB, which makes it sound perceptively louder. If Eminence 'weight' their curves to take advantage of this - because that's the 'presence peak', where the ear is most sensitive - then you could produce an apparent average of 103dB from exactly the same speaker.

Cirrus

IIRC they get the sensitivity by running a sine wave at 1w through the speaker and measure the volume a certain distance in front of said speaker.

Maybe Celestion use 1k and Eminence cheat and use 2k or something.