Blackstar enters the trough of disillusionment

ThePrettyDamned

The blue cabs had neodymium speakers in, too.  

Which is cool, right? Some folk don't like the sound, but they sometimes go cheap.  Ply construction IIRC too. 

ICBM

ThePrettyDamned said:

The blue cabs had neodymium speakers in, too.  

Which is cool, right? Some folk don't like the sound, but they sometimes go cheap.

Sometimes they go up in smoke, which is why I have repaired Vox amps with them in…

Don't like them personally, I don't like the sound and they are not as robust as other similar-rated ceramic or alnico speakers in my experience (not just of the Vox ones). They're lightweight… in all ways, in my opinion!

Voxman

ICBM said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

The blue cabs had neodymium speakers in, too.  

Which is cool, right? Some folk don't like the sound, but they sometimes go cheap.

Sometimes they go up in smoke, which is why I have repaired Vox amps with them in…

Don't like them personally, I don't like the sound and they are not as robust as other similar-rated ceramic or alnico speakers in my experience (not just of the Vox ones). They're lightweight… in all ways, in my opinion!

  Are we talking about the same amp and speakers here?  The original AD60/120VT Blues had Celestion 'voiced' ceramic speakers rated at 60w and had open-backed MDF cabs, with no impedence selector if an extension cab was run (admittedly less vital in  DSP amp).  The later AD60/120VTX versions (brought out in 2003) were closed back, marine grade birch-ply cab construction, 8/16 Ohm selector, and had the Vox Neodymium Neodog speakers rated at 80w.  These were an 80w version of the 60w Celestion G12 Century Vintage speaker but with a slightly different frequency response to better match the amps modelling characteristics.  Tone is always subjective (I personally think they sound pretty good and have never had anything but compliments on my tone) but the neodymium magnets meant they were a very efficient high-performing speaker at about half the weight of conventional speakers ....and these were expensive even then - the rising cost of Neodymium has meant that a Celestion G12 Century Vintage retails today for about £110-£120 each ( http://www.hotroxuk.com/celestion-g12-century-vintage-8-ohms.html) 

I have been the Administrator for Vox Valvetronix.net since 2004 and whilst I've heard about one or two original Celestions blowing I have never ever heard of a single Vox Neodog blowing either from Valvetronix owners or any amp tech - and that's global not just in the UK.  In addition to my AD120VTX I have the matching AD212 extension cab (same construction and speakers) and ditto I have never heard anything but excellent reports of this cab/speaker complement when used with an AD60VT/VTH head or any other amp. I am therefore very surprised indeed if you're talking about the Neodogs in the VTX.

 

Dominic

Played an artisan 15 for a few months - wanted to like it so badly -but just couldn 't 

Found the sound at any level to be spiky and extremely brittle -particularly harsh on single coils

it was nicely made and no qualms with the quality of cab or controls,pots etc - many high end boutiques are not as well made

ecc83

Dominic said:

Played an artisan 15 for a few months - wanted to like it so badly -but just couldn 't 

Found the sound at any level to be spiky and extremely brittle -particularly harsh on single coils

it was nicely made and no qualms with the quality of cab or controls,pots etc - many high end boutiques are not as well made

Don't want to keep seeming to defend Bs' here but such results are not typical for most people's responses to the Artisans and if there is any real concensus about the "Blackstar Sound" it would be that it is "dark" some even say muddy!

So, I would urge anyone with a "spikey" or trebly Artisan to get it checked out. You must remember the A15s and 30s were the first amps put out by a very new company, errors would be and were made. Then they had a fire at the factory so all was complete ***t for months.

Dave.

Danny1969

ICBM said:

That certainly might explain why I see the AD15 and 30 for repair but not the 120!

I did work on a 120 once, and on a 60 twice I think, but they just had blown speakers so I didn't bother investigating the amp section. They didn't look especially well-made, but if they don't show up for repair they can't be that bad.

The build quality on the first ones was awful. I repaired 3, all a mess of bad joints on a PCB that flexed too much. The Korg built bit up the top was fine but the PCB containing the valve reactor, switching circuits and power amp looked like it had been soldered by a blind man while sitting on top of a mechanical bull that had taken some speed

I've done loads of VT's .... there's a little PCB that contains the input jack and headphone socket. The joints go bad on the headphone jack and cut out the speaker. I normally mod em with some point to point wiring so they won't go again

ICBM

Voxman said:

  Are we talking about the same amp and speakers here?

Definitely one Vox with a Neo that was making an odd noise (not completely blown), and a couple of Centurys, one also with a similar noise and one dead. Plus quite a few bass speakers. They just don't seem all that robust compared to similar ceramics.

I find the tone thin on any I've tried for guitar, and not been impressed by them for bass either. They seem almost too 'light' and 'fast' - bad choice of words I know, but that's the impression I get of the sound… thin and a bit tinny. I can see the advantage of light weight - although it's not that significant when you put them in a fairly heavy cab - but given the high cost and the tone, I don't really see the point.

I tried a Century in one of my own amps, and at first I was quite impressed by it - although it had no real bottom end - but it very quickly became fatiguing to listen to and it was a relief to swap it back out.

StefB

Dave_Mc said:

gearaddict said:

Blackstar seemed to get particularly badly flayed for the 'all tube' thing - H&K do the same thing but seem to get away with it.

To be fair, I always bring it up when H&K are mentioned as well.

And yeah I daresay a lot of people don't care, but at the same time on other forums we get a Blackstar thread maybe once a week where it's clear the threadstarter thinks it's all-valve, and is considering it because he/she thinks it's all-valve.

That's not ok in my book.

If it really didn't affect sales they'd be up-front about what it was.

In my opinion.

I've had a couple of Statesman 6L6 combos over the years, the latest one being a keeper.  They have two power amp valves and two ECC83s in the pre-amp - I've no doubt there is some solid state trickery going on, and have heard that it is used to boost one of the gain stages a bit like a pedal, but they sound great either way.

One thing that always irks me is that Rivera Pubsters and Chubsters are never included in this debate.  They 'only' contain two ECC83s as well, just like the HTs and Statesman, cost considerably more than both, yet their all valve integrity is never called into question for some reason.  Perhaps because they don't go OTT with the 'all valve' marketing like the other brands?

ecc83

Pains me to say it! But that...

http://www.zozef.gr/eshop/rivera-pubster-45w.html?___store=english&___from_store=greek

Is not a bad price considering the Celestion Gold!

But yeah, I suspect some silicon gain (can't find a map) and the reverb surely must be chip driven/recovered? But that is forgivable in my book.

Dave.

stickyfiddle

I'm not sure about the 45s but the Rivera 25s definitely have clipping somethingorothers. They sound bloody awesome though.

tbh I think they don't get any shit for it because they don't do any big marketing based on valve-this and valve-that. Frankly, they do so little marketing most people haven't heard of them..!

ICBM

I really don't know much about them. I can't find any schematics online either, and the only pic I can find is this very small one which doesn't show enough detail to be sure.

http://img.guitarchina.com/imggc/1219y/40.jpg

If I ever have to work on one I'll check, and spill the beans.

I do know that Paul Rivera said he had a 'lifelong enthusiasm for solid state' in an old interview, and as well as the so-called 'Rivera Series' Fender valve amps, he also designed the Studio Lead solid-state amp and a few others for them, all of which sound good, so I don't think it's either unlikely or a bad thing.

The 'Vintage Gold' speaker is not a 'Gold' (Alnico) either - it's some sort of G12T with a custom label, like the ones Marshall have sometimes labeled 'Gold Back'.

http://allaccess.co.jp/rivera/pubster/Pubster45_2.jpg

Voxman

I don't know about their innards, but from a players perspective I've played the Venus 5 (50w 1x12), & Clubster 45 (1x12) & they both sounded great - I loved the Venus 5 looks too...very retro.  

ecc83

"The 'Vintage Gold' speaker is not a 'Gold' (Alnico) either - it's some sort of G12T with a custom label, like the ones Marshall have sometimes labeled 'Gold Back'.

Naughty!

There are 4 "things on that PCB that could be LT regulators or/and power MOSFETs or bipolars. SState PI? That would free up two triodes for gain.

But yes, that picture pixilates too soon to tell.

Dave.

Paul_C

I was certainly taken in by the description of them as valve amps, I bought an HT20 which in the shop seemed to be just what I was looking for, but I couldn't get anything but clean from the clean channel and gain from the gain channel.

I realise that sounds daft, but what I was after was a slightly breaking up clean sound that I eventually found by selling it and buying an AC15C1.

Dave_Mc

StefB said:

Dave_Mc said:

gearaddict said:

Blackstar seemed to get particularly badly flayed for the 'all tube' thing - H&K do the same thing but seem to get away with it.

To be fair, I always bring it up when H&K are mentioned as well.

And yeah I daresay a lot of people don't care, but at the same time on other forums we get a Blackstar thread maybe once a week where it's clear the threadstarter thinks it's all-valve, and is considering it because he/she thinks it's all-valve.

That's not ok in my book.

If it really didn't affect sales they'd be up-front about what it was.

In my opinion.

I've had a couple of Statesman 6L6 combos over the years, the latest one being a keeper.  They have two power amp valves and two ECC83s in the pre-amp - I've no doubt there is some solid state trickery going on, and have heard that it is used to boost one of the gain stages a bit like a pedal, but they sound great either way.

One thing that always irks me is that Rivera Pubsters and Chubsters are never included in this debate.  They 'only' contain two ECC83s as well, just like the HTs and Statesman, cost considerably more than both, yet their all valve integrity is never called into question for some reason.  Perhaps because they don't go OTT with the 'all valve' marketing like the other brands?

Yeah possibly. I know I always point out about H&K (the tubemeisters come up a lot on ultimate guitar- IIRC H&K swore blind they were all-valve too when asked in emails until more solid proof came out- that's as bad as, maybe worse than, blackstar has been). I normally point out about Rivera too but they just don't come up all that much in threads.

ecc83 said:

Dominic said:

Played an artisan 15 for a few months - wanted to like it so badly -but just couldn 't 

Found the sound at any level to be spiky and extremely brittle -particularly harsh on single coils

it was nicely made and no qualms with the quality of cab or controls,pots etc - many high end boutiques are not as well made

Don't want to keep seeming to defend Bs' here but such results are not typical for most people's responses to the Artisans and if there is any real concensus about the "Blackstar Sound" it would be that it is "dark" some even say muddy!

So, I would urge anyone with a "spikey" or trebly Artisan to get it checked out. You must remember the A15s and 30s were the first amps put out by a very new company, errors would be and were made. Then they had a fire at the factory so all was complete ***t for months.

Dave.

The one I tried sounded a wee bit brittle/spiky too. In hindsight I suspect the (probably not broken-in) v30s I tried it with didn't help. Like ICBM, I like V30s with certain styles of amp, but I'd prefer a greenback, g12h30 or similar with a more vintage style of amp (which I think the artisan is).

DartmoorHedgehog

Paul_C said:

 I bought an HT20 which in the shop seemed to be just what I was looking for, but I couldn't get anything but clean from the clean channel and gain from the gain channel.

My HT-20 wouldn't break up at all on the clean channel at home volume (without a boost pedal), but at band volume it had quite a nice breakup IMO - some would say it didn't have *enough* headroom if they wanted loud clean.  Or drive channel with the gain right down, which is what I normally used - swapping that channel's preamp valve for a 12AY7 helped a lot here to stop it getting too gainy too quickly.  But having said that, the main reason I stopped using the HT-20  was that the Rocker 30 does do much better "in-between" sounds, which is where I usually am.

not_the_dj

DartmoorHedgehog said:

Paul_C said:

 I bought an HT20 which in the shop seemed to be just what I was looking for, but I couldn't get anything but clean from the clean channel and gain from the gain channel.

My HT-20 wouldn't break up at all on the clean channel at home volume (without a boost pedal), but at band volume it had quite a nice breakup IMO - some would say it didn't have *enough* headroom if they wanted loud clean.  Or drive channel with the gain right down, which is what I normally used - swapping that channel's preamp valve for a 12AY7 helped a lot here to stop it getting too gainy too quickly.  But having said that, the main reason I stopped using the HT-20  was that the Rocker 30 does do much better "in-between" sounds, which is where I usually am.

Does the 20 have a voice switch on the clean channel? I use the HT-50 head and much prefer the 'boutique' voice which breaks up nicely.

jpfamps

I had a look at the Rivera web site and phrases such as "all tube" and "pure tube" are absent from the blurb for the Pubster.

http://www.rivera.com/index.php/products/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=206

Regardless just because other companies use "questionable" advertising does not justify you doing it.

DartmoorHedgehog

not_the_dj said:

Does the 20 have a voice switch on the clean channel? I use the HT-50 head and much prefer the 'boutique' voice which breaks up nicely.

No, the 20 doesn't have any voice switches - I don't know which of the voices the 20's clean channel is like, but it did only really break up at band volume.

not_the_dj

DartmoorHedgehog said:

not_the_dj said:

Does the 20 have a voice switch on the clean channel? I use the HT-50 head and much prefer the 'boutique' voice which breaks up nicely.

No, the 20 doesn't have any voice switches - I don't know which of the voices the 20's clean channel is like, but it did only really break up at band volume.

I guess it's the "modern" one on the 50. Although they don't actually label the settings on the button so I always forget which is which. Same on the OD channel there's two voices there on the 50.