P90 pickups -vs- P90 Humbucker sized pickups ~ ~ ~ & other things too !!!

ChrisMusic

TheGuitarWeasel said:         ... funny old world

But all the better for the decent people who are in it  

ChrisMusic

Bitter-sweet, thanks for sharing @TheGuitarWeasel, true gentlemen, both of you, that is how this world should work  

ChrisMusic

@octatonic, advice please,

just a quick repeat of a section of my comment somewhere above, and maybe a bit more relevant today as Si is looking to sell his rig.

"Oh and yes, also the amp stuff too.  That is a whole other exploration, back in my past life I never did find an amp I was happy with.

So maybe this time round?  Who knows?"

"At the risk of slipping somewhat "off topic" a bit, I am intrigued about the top end modelling like your Axe FX, does that replace the whole amp for live use, allowing you to maybe go the DI to PA and IEM route?  Is it a satisfying solution?  I am only just learning to play again so any live performance is a distant possibility, and the tech has moved on a lot, but I have to say I quite fancy playing to an audience again sometime.  So I will need to get my head around this whole area of live kit."

octatonic

ChrisMusic said:

@octatonic, advice please,

just a quick repeat of a section of my comment somewhere above, and maybe a bit more relevant today as Si is looking to sell his rig.

"Oh and yes, also the amp stuff too.  That is a whole other exploration, back in my past life I never did find an amp I was happy with.

So maybe this time round?  Who knows?"

"At the risk of slipping somewhat "off topic" a bit, I am intrigued about the top end modelling like your Axe FX, does that replace the whole amp for live use, allowing you to maybe go the DI to PA and IEM route?  Is it a satisfying solution?  I am only just learning to play again so any live performance is a distant possibility, and the tech has moved on a lot, but I have to say I quite fancy playing to an audience again sometime.  So I will need to get my head around this whole area of live kit."

Short answer 'mostly yes'.

Long answer.

The Axe FX requires time and the right temperament to get the most out of it.

For some it will be the only rig they ever need, for others it won't be.

Using Si as an example here- he has had the AFX several times now and ended up selling it for various, well-documented reasons.

(No slight on Si at all- he has a tonal idea in his head and props to him for chasing it).

Some people are willing to live with the compromises of the Axe FX rig.

If I'm 100% honest it doesn't QUITE nail the feel of an amp in the room.

For recordings- yes 100%- it is there with anything else I've recorded in the last 10 years and better than anything before it.

It is an incredibly deep topic and one that has no real answer other than what a particular person thinks at a particular time.

I'm always changing my mind about it- not whether it is good/bad but whether for X project do I want to use an Axe FX or a hardware amp.

I'm lucky that that choice doesn't involve anything more than me grabbing either the Axe FX OR one of my hardware amps and pedals.

Cliff notes on Axe FX buying:

If you are someone who wants instant gratification and only wants a couple of sounds then maybe it isn't for you.

If you are someone that wants a lot of different tones, is interested in sound design or needs to practice silently a lot, then it is worth investigating.

There are no guarantees though and plenty of people who I thought would be into it eventually go back to hardware amps.

A few people that I think would be better off with a hardware amp, based on their tonal requirement and temperament, have stuck with it and have done some great work with them.

You kinda have to suck it and see.

ChrisMusic

Thanks @octatonic, I appreciate that.

How do you personally use it live?

What about recording?

I come from a time of using 2 or more 4x12s, iffy monitoring and maybe side fills.  Although I have worked in pro audio since then, that was also a long time ago.

I really like the idea of a small, light and predictable rig, delivering the desk something easy to work with, and getting a good monitor mix on stage.

Another part of this, do you use, or have you tried IEM?  I am pretty 'old school' but they look like a good solution with the right mindset.  Fits right in with compact and predictable, non?

Do you loose the 'feel' of a lot of air being moved onstage when going IEM?  Does FOH compensate if so?

Broad questions I know, but I would be grateful for your perspective.

I have an awful lot of catching up to do.  Thanks.

octatonic

ChrisMusic said:

Thanks @octatonic, I appreciate that.

How do you personally use it live?

What about recording?

I come from a time of using 2 or more 4x12s, iffy monitoring and maybe side fills.  Although I have worked in pro audio since then, that was also a long time ago.

I really like the idea of a small, light and predictable rig, delivering the desk something easy to work with, and getting a good monitor mix on stage.

Another part of this, do you use, or have you tried IEM?  I am pretty 'old school' but they look like a good solution with the right mindset.  Fits right in with compact and predictable, non?

Do you loose the 'feel' of a lot of air being moved onstage when going IEM?  Does FOH compensate if so?

Broad questions I know, but I would be grateful for your perspective.

I have an awful lot of catching up to do.  Thanks.

My use isn't typical as I'm in the 'sound-design' arena more than anything.

This is one a recording of my 'space organ' patch.

I'm playing single notes on the guitar.

http://www.jamesrichmond.com/misc/jesusbloodguitar.mp3

Or something like this:

http://www.jamesrichmond.com/misc/guitarscaping/spaceorgan.mp3

If I'm doing something more typically 'guitaristic' then I tend to prefer having a guitar speaker behind me.

I use IEM when I'm flying and can't use anything except what I'm given, I take the Forshage and an Axe FX/floor controller.

I do a lot of recording with the Axe FX.

If you check out Irene Ketikidi's album 'Martial Arts and Magic Tricks' on iTunes/Spotify (not so much her clips on youtube) you can hear  a lot of the Axe FX II. 

I re-amped all of her guitar tracks through the AFX.

Edit: Have a read of this if you like:

http://www.truthinshredding.com/2013/05/james-richmondirene-ketikidi-pro-series.html

It has some links to the album and a bit about the recording process. 

I mention the AFX in passing.

ChrisMusic

Brilliant, thanks for the reply, and the links @octatonic.

You have created some hauntingly atmospheric sounds from your Axe FX.

That demonstrates some remarkable flexibility in emulating synth type sounds as well as the balls-to-the-wall guitar tones, I really didn't expect that.

I enjoyed reading the truth in shredding article, that is such a different way of working.  I really do have an awful lot of catching up to do.

Great sounds and mix on the Irene Ketikidi album, excellent work on that BTW.  Pretty tasty guitar work too, the girl has talent.

ChrisMusic

Hey @TheGuitarWeasel, those were fascinating insights into the old Gibson methods, both the official and the usual deviation into reality.  Even when I was doing MOD work there were a few modifications to the workflow to suit the reality of the situation, so it all rings very true.

Taking some the ideas in that part of the discussion a bit further, can you give me an idea of what would happen if I put 4 P90s next to each other in a guitar?

I am assuming that the magnetic poles face outwards at the base of the pickup, so in this scenario they would be almost touching.  I also assume that this would cause a change in the behaviour of the magnetic circuits and in sound of the pickups.

I'm not sure if that's something you may have tried, or just a hypothetical?

I am also wondering if that would affect a single coil or HB put right next to (ie touching) a P90.

What do you think?

And how do P90s play with other pickups?

I'm thinking along the lines of what octatonic said about the serendipity of mixing different types too, permutations offer unexpected possibilities.

Do you have a perspective on mixing things up a bit?

ddlooping

ChrisMusic said:

Taking some the ideas in that part of the discussion a bit further, can you give me an idea of what would happen if I put 4 P90s next to each other in a guitar?

You'd create a tear in the space/time continuum I'm afraid. B-) 

octatonic

ChrisMusic said:

Brilliant, thanks for the reply, and the links @octatonic.

You have created some hauntingly atmospheric sounds from your Axe FX.

That demonstrates some remarkable flexibility in emulating synth type sounds as well as the balls-to-the-wall guitar tones, I really didn't expect that.

I enjoyed reading the truth in shredding article, that is such a different way of working.  I really do have an awful lot of catching up to do.

Great sounds and mix on the Irene Ketikidi album, excellent work on that BTW.  Pretty tasty guitar work too, the girl has talent.

Thanks Chris- glad you dig it.

The sound design elements of the Axe FX are pretty vast.

Even though I've had it (including my time with the Ultra) 3-4 years now I feel I'm still discovering new stuff all the time.

Just so you know the Axe FX was first conceived as an effects processor.

The modelling was an afterthought.

Over time Cliff Chase realised that most people were interested in modelling real world amps and he put his attention more towards that.

I'm not very interested in modelling real world amps- that is in the arena of what could be called 'musical re-enactment'.

There are some people on the Fractal forum that are really good at this sort of stuff so maybe drop by there and ask a few questions.

I'm more interested in new sounds and textures so I spend most of my time working with those.

ChrisMusic

ddlooping said:

ChrisMusic said:   Taking some the ideas in that part of the discussion a bit further, can you give me an idea of what would happen if I put 4 P90s next to each other in a guitar?

You'd create a tear in the space/time continuum I'm afraid. B-) 

That settles it then, just gotta do it.

I was going for world domination, 'resistance is futile' and all that malarky...

But that is way cooler.

Hold onto your seats chaps, this could get a bit bumpy ....

\m/

OilCityPickups

Never tried getting 90s that close ... interesting experiment. P90s 'mix' very well with other pickups: I have a Mighty Ninety in the neck of one of my Ibanez semis ... and a 'Sun-T-Ron' DeArmond style in the bridge ... and that makes a lovely combo. A Tele in the bridge and a P90 in the neck is another good combo ... two P90s and a Tele pickup in a Strat ... and two Firebirds with a hot P90 in the bridge all work well.

johnhe

Superb thread. Thanks guys for sharing your hard earned knowledge.

ChrisMusic

Hey @johnhe, glad you're enjoying the journey.  It has certainly taken some interesting, and poignant, turns along the way.

Cheers @octatonic, yes I do dig it, thanks for sharing.  I'll take some time over the Axe FX ideas, but I recon spending some time over there would be very productive.  The Axe FX is just my sort of thing, especially as you have demystified a bit of it's unexpected versatility.  I note that Si is having second thoughts about selling his now, so no rush.  And Cliff sounds like he's coming from the right place.  The textural stuff is a really exciting option.

Thanks @TheGuitarWeasel, as long as ddlooping is wrong about the space/time continuum, then I think I will have a go at the 4xP90 idea.  Is it the same pole facing outwards on both sides of a P90? and what about using an RWRP version? and what sound change is there in running both like a big P90 flavoured humbucker? good idea / bad idea? what do you think?

Nice guitar that black ghost @ddlooping, just watched the gear fest footage (>here<), looks good, and sounds great too, I think I will need a chat with Ash about those pickups.  Nice chops BTW.

I fancied the idea of the Brass Knuckle, so I would love some more information on that, including any techy stuff you want to share Ash, I find it all facinating.

I was thinking Cow Trons for an old Korean Epi Dot I am rebuilding, so maybe a bit on them too might not be amiss.

Thanks y'all.

ChrisMusic

Has anyone on here tried or have Cow Trons fitted ?

What do you use them for and with what amp and effects?

Oh and how would you describe the sound?

ThePrettyDamned

G

ChrisMusic;44602" said:

Has anyone on here tried or have Cow Trons fitted ?What do you use them for and with what amp and effects?Oh and how would you describe the sound?

Got one in the bridge of my jazzmaster, see pic. It's a wonderful pickup, instant acdc. Sounds great clean, I had to raise it to get output to match the neck single coil (but neck position is always much louder relative to bridge - physics). Sounds great clean or dirty, but I'd say malcolm young sound is a good ballpark. Loves higher gain, too, maintains clarity on fairly big chords.

ChrisMusic

Thanks for the input @ThePrettyDamned, sounds good to me, do they not have a bit of 60s jangle too.?

Anyone else with experience of the Cow Trons?

Or has anyone used @TheGuitarWeasel s Brass Knuckles?

same question really

What do you use them for and with what amp and effects?

Oh and how would you describe the sound?

ThePrettyDamned

It's got jangle, but not the Rickenbacker sort (to my ears) - it basically sounds like what it is, a sweet but cutting humbucker.  It's probably one of the most versatile straight up 'buckers out there, it sounds fab when playing open chords, as everything sounds 'balanced' - the bass is there, but it's not overpowering.  There is plenty of mids to push the amp where you want it and there is enough treble for cut, but not so much to sound sharp or cutting (which I don't like Gibson 490's or whatever they're called, for).  It's equally as happy with punky power chords.  It also works nice with a fuzz pedal, something higher output 'buckers do not - I still prefer single coils, but this has a little less squish.  

You could happily cover Beatles choons with it, and not want more 'jangle' - I tell you what, I'll see if I can do a demo and upload it sometime in the next few weeks.  It'll be with POD farm, so I can't guarantee amazing tone (I've nailed high gain sounds, but cleans are still eluding me).  I'll just set up a nice clean and drive sound, then plug in the jazzmaster.  You'll have to excuse the poor intonation :P i'm also working on that... Then I'll plug in my LTD H1001, with a Duncan Custom SH 5 and Jazz in the neck.  You'll hear a MASSIVE difference, and not just because the LTD is in drop C. Maybe I'll use the Bassman model and the AC30 one for cleans, and I'll just load up my dual rec riffing tone for drive.  

p90fool

ChrisMusic said:

Thanks for the input @ThePrettyDamned, sounds good to me, do they not have a bit of 60s jangle too.?

Anyone else with experience of the Cow Trons?

If you go to the bottom of this page;
 
http://www.oilcitypickups.co.uk/humbucker.html

you can hear the demo I did with a pair of those in a Les Paul. Although it sounds clean and rockabilly-ish, I was using a medium amount of gain. I rolled both volumes back to halfway and was very careful with picking dynamics, which is why it sounds fairly clean.

The joyful thing about them is that when roll the volume back up you get amazing clarity, but in a true treble range rather than in the harsher high-mid area. You can get loads of bite in a band mix without having to find a narrow sweet spot to avoid cutting the audience's heads off.

I can't recommend them highly enough, especially at the price. I only have one atm, as a very good mate of mine stole one off me and put it in the neck position of his Tele. It sounds so good in there I might sneak round and pinch the whole guitar!

NPP

this is a great thread, thanks to all who contributed stories and info. 

All I can add myself is that Oil City Mighty Nineties sound sweet, and that P90s do seem to work well with HBs - I have a Duncan P90 in the neck and Duncan 59 in the bridge of a 90s Epi Sheraton and the middle position sound is great (I put them in in the 90s, before the internet and boutique stuff and all that).