P90 pickups -vs- P90 Humbucker sized pickups ~ ~ ~ & other things too !!!

ChrisMusic

Thanks @p90fool, that's a great demo of the Cow Trons you put up on Oil City's site, they sound fantastic, great playing to demonstrate the clarity and character too.

Cheers @NPP, glad you have enjoyed the ride so far, we seem to have covered a lot of ground here.

I too appreciate the stories and the input from everyone.

Thanks @ThePrettyDamned, good description.  If you have the time to do a demo that would be really great.

ChrisMusic

Another question which has been bugging me since I saw Focus in concert at the Rainbow in 1973, and that's a long old time to be bugged by a question.

What was the P480 pickup, both design and sound, and anything else you may know about it?

It was used in the 1954 Les Paul Custom and in the '72 reissue.  Not sure if it has been used in anything else or since?

I think it had rectangular profile Alnico V magnets which looked very distinctive protruding from what looked like a stock P90 case.

Anyone here got an insight into these beasties?

How about it @TheGuitarWeasel, what say you?

OilCityPickups

The 480 is more or less a P90 style design with alnico magnets for each string. Similar in principal to a Jazzmaster pickup. It's a little more deep and 'piano like' in sound than a P90 ... more like a DeArmond Dynasonic pickup. Pretty easy to do these in my P90 humbucker cases using conventional rod magnets ... much in the way my Sun-T-Rons are made.

ChrisMusic

Just in case anyone hasn't seen a P480 and is interested, I found a 1957 LP Custom up for sale. (I thought they were only fitted on '54s and 72 reissues, so you live and learn)  (he may take the pics down when it sells)

"Custom Black finish. P 90 and Alnico pick up. 

The last ones made to this specification. Only 200 made that year. Very, very collectable"

http://www.newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/guitarshop/1957_Alnico_LP.html

So what else do you want to do with the money, buy a new car, put a deposit on a house ?  !!!

~ ~ ~ ~ ~

And thanks again @TheGuitarWeasel, very interesting.

Oh and from a previous question, if you have a perspective on this.

Is it the same pole facing outwards on both sides of a P90? and what about using an RWRP version? and what sound change is there in running both like a big P90 flavoured humbucker? (ie right next to each other) - good idea / bad idea? what do you think?

BTW how do stacked humbuckers work?  You cant do the reverse magnetic polarity on one so I am curious.

Looking at Les Paul Personal and Recording guitars online yesterday, and there is a huge tin can sized low impedance stacked humbucker.  It is much wider than the string width too, which I assume is to control any drop-off at the edges.

They always say there is a lot of sound variation with those.

I nearly bought a LP Recording in Denmark St back in the 70s.

OilCityPickups

phew ... tons of questions here!

ChrisMusic said:

Oh and from a previous question, if you have a perspective on this.

Is it the same pole facing outwards on both sides of a P90? and what about using an RWRP version?

Well to start with part of a P90's sound comes from the fact that repelling poles are forced together on either side of a P90's keeper bar. This leads to lots of power but a less focused field ... part of the characteristic sound of a P90. So yes ... the same (in most cases north) pole of a p90 is facing outwards.

ChrisMusic said:

 and what sound change is there in running both like a big P90 flavoured humbucker? (ie right next to each other) - good idea / bad idea? what do you think?

Well I don't tend to RWRP P90s as standard as I don't particularly like the slightly thinner sound they get when they run as a humbucking pair (BK do a good video on the difference if you're curious). P90s are touchy pickups to mess with on their specs so I've never tried a pair together ... as in side by side. I think they'd probably not sound that good and would be a huge waste of space

ChrisMusic said:

BTW how do stacked humbuckers work?  You cant do the reverse magnetic polarity on one so I am curious.

Right ... think of it like this: there is only one magnet in a PAF right? and in order to bring the field up under the strings in each bobbin we effectively make the magnet U shaped by using the pole screws. So If we take the same idea, and flatten out the U to then stand it on end with two coils on it it will still  be a humbucker, just a REALLY inefficient one. The top coil will do most of the string sensing, whereas the bottom one will really only act as a dummy coil to 'buck' the hum. This is why stacks have to be wound about twice as hot as conventional single coils to get the same output. Putting all that wire on there that doesn't add to the actual volume of the pickup 'loads' the coil, and can considerably reduces the dynamic range of the pickup. This is why .. frankly ... most stacks are pretty crap.
About the only way you can get a stack to work properly is in a low impedance format, as seen on the LP Personal/Recording ... however that requires a transformer ... and it's debatable whether that 'variety' of sounds equates to the tones and output a modern guitarist looks for ... the Recording can be very Hifi and sterile (personal opinion warning !)

ThePrettyDamned

Nathan Sheppard used to jam two p90's together as a humbucker.

Well, it looked like that anyway, I suppose looks can be deceiving.

http://www.nsguitars.co.uk/models_pricing.html

OilCityPickups

ThePrettyDamned said:

Nathan Sheppard used to jam two p90's together as a humbucker.

Well, it looked like that anyway, I suppose looks can be deceiving.

http://www.nsguitars.co.uk/models_pricing.html

hummm don't see a lot of point to that one I must say ... still, 'proof of the pudding is if it gives you the squirts' as me granddad used to say

ThePrettyDamned

TheGuitarWeasel said:

ThePrettyDamned said:

Nathan Sheppard used to jam two p90's together as a humbucker.

Well, it looked like that anyway, I suppose looks can be deceiving.

http://www.nsguitars.co.uk/models_pricing.html

hummm don't see a lot of point to that one I must say ... still, 'proof of the pudding is if it gives you the squirts' as me granddad used to say

Apparently, his guitars were very good, but after getting magazine reviews, his workload increased exponentially and he couldn't keep up.   It's why I genuinely believe independent, 1-2 man teams should just stay on the down low and charge a premium.  It's a double edged sword, getting a magazine review... Also, if they slate you for being different, you have a big problem ¬_¬ just for not being enough like fibson. 

But seriously, just to show you it had been done before - perhaps it will give you a great an unique tone?  I know NSG's were highly regarded, and obviously, having a gradual coil shunt on that would let you go from full humbucker to genuine p90 tone.  

And I think it looks rather cool. 

ChrisMusic

ThePrettyDamned said:   Nathan Sheppard used to jam two p90's together as a humbucker.

Well found @ThePrettyDamned, nice to get a look at the aesthetics.

Some very nice guitars on there, thanks for the link.

Shame if he had problems, brings that old wisdom to mind "be careful what you wish for - it may come true"

I may just be mad enough to give it a try  

@TheGuitarWeasel said:   ...still, 'proof of the pudding is if it gives you the squirts' as me granddad used to say

What on earth does your family put in your puddings  !  ?

thanks for the invite, but I think I'll skip lunch

boogieman

I put a set of Mojo HB sized P90s in an SG recently. Marc at Mojo is a great guy to deal with and he built me the pickups from scratch in only a couple of weeks. They sound perfect in the SG, I was after the archetypal Live at Leeds tone and these come pretty close to my ears, great definition but also gritty with some added amp drive.

Incidentally I've just had the guitar looked at by Murray Torkeldson at Murray's Guitar Care and he's done a fantastic job. New bone nut, some fret work and a perfect set up means that its playing better than ever and my other guitars haven't had a look in for the last few weeks. I would say I'm almost Gas free at the moment, but that's just until I spot something in the classifieds. >:D<

ChrisMusic

TheGuitarWeasel said:   phew ... tons of questions here!  ... ... ...

I guess I am naturally curious, must have been a nightmare for my parents, why this & why that.

It is just such a fascinating world we live in.

An ex girlfriend, a long time ago, said that learning too much, and always asking why "took all of the magic out of the world".

IMHO the more I learn, and the more the intricacy of things opens up in front of me, the more I am awed by "the magic in the world"

Oh, and great answers as always, thanks Ash                      @TheGuitarWeasel

TheGuitarWeasel said:   ... The top coil will do most of the string sensing, whereas the bottom one will really only act as a dummy coil to 'buck' the hum...

OK and having set the scene, as one question is answered another opens...

Can you tell me a bit more about dummy coils please.

I assumed that was what the silent switch type gizmos were all about, but I could be so wrong.

How much and in what way do they affect the sound?

Can you just hide one away in a suitable recepticle routed on a guitar?

Cheers,  Chris

OilCityPickups

ChrisMusic said:

TheGuitarWeasel said:   phew ... tons of questions here!  ... ... ...

I guess I am naturally curious, must have been a nightmare for my parents, why this & why that.

It is just such a fascinating world we live in.

An ex girlfriend, a long time ago, said that learning too much, and always asking why "took all of the magic out of the world".

IMHO the more I learn, and the more the intricacy of things opens up in front of me, the more I am awed by "the magic in the world"

Oh, and great answers as always, thanks Ash                      @TheGuitarWeasel

TheGuitarWeasel said:   ... The top coil will do most of the string sensing, whereas the bottom one will really only act as a dummy coil to 'buck' the hum...

OK and having set the scene, as one question is answered another opens...

Can you tell me a bit more about dummy coils please.

I assumed that was what the silent switch type gizmos were all about, but I could be so wrong.

How much and in what way do they affect the sound?

Can you just hide one away in a suitable recepticle routed on a guitar?

Cheers,  Chris

The main problem with dummy coils (in simple terms) is that you are adding lots of wire to the circuit that isn't playing any part in sensing the strings (just the hum).  That gives you a big resistance for a smallish output. This tends to filter out the top end sparkle from the sound.
A far better solution ... in my opinion at least ... for a noiseless 'single coil', is a 'split' design ... where three strings are sensed by one coil ... and the other three are sensed by a RWRP coil. Both pickups are still in use and sensing 'string', as much sparkle as possible is kept ... and the whole shooting match is quiet.

ICBM

That design goes back to Leo Fender and the '57 Precision Bass pickup. Contrary to what most people assume about Fender sticking to single coils, Leo did care about eliminating hum - Fender didn't make a guitar without some sort of hum cancellation after that. (Apart from the one-pickup student models.) All the two-pickup instruments use RWRP pairs, and quite a few had split pickups as well.

OilCityPickups

The real difficulty is in fitting split pickups into the form factors that everyone uses. I have done loads of experimentation and you are fine staggering the coils like a Precision bass... or a G&L six string for that matter ... but as soon as you try and shoehorn everything under a Strat cover or a through a Tele bridge-plate it all goes a bit runny round the edges (a technical term used by pickup winders). There is a finite amount of room between the G and D magnets ... and you have to fit in the facing ends of two coils. This physically limits the amount/gauge of wire you can use ... so to get the output up to sensible levels you have to go to a thinner gauge wire ... with the changes in tone that go with that.
I have had a noiseless Tele bridge pickup on my 'prototype bench' for some while ... but I'm still not 100% happy with the compromises in tone that have to be made to achieve the holy grail of silence in a conventional package. It's no worse than other noiseless pickups that are out there on the market ... but still doesn't quite cut it for these lug-oles.

ICBM

I genuinely think the hum is part of the tone of a true single coil. If you eliminate the hum, you also take away some of the character of the pickup. It think it works as a subtle sort of 'carrier modulation'.

That said, I do like to have at least one hum-cancelling setting on all my guitars if possible, simply because there are some venues where the hum is so severe that it becomes difficult to get a usable sound without, especially if you use a lot of distortion.

OilCityPickups

ICBM said:

I genuinely think the hum is part of the tone of a true single coil. If you eliminate the hum, you also take away some of the character of the pickup. It think it works as a subtle sort of 'carrier modulation'.

That said, I do like to have at least one hum-cancelling setting on all my guitars if possible, simply because there are some venues where the hum is so severe that it becomes difficult to get a usable sound without, especially if you use a lot of distortion.

I tend to agree with you ... as I have, for the time being, abandoned any more 'noiseless' research  

ddlooping

TheGuitarWeasel said:
I tend to agree with you ... as I have, for the time being, abandoned any more 'noiseless' research  

On to better things.

ChrisMusic

TheGuitarWeasel said:

The main problem with dummy coils (in simple terms) is that you are adding lots of wire to the circuit that isn't playing any part in sensing the strings (just the hum).  That gives you a big resistance for a smallish output. This tends to filter out the top end sparkle from the sound.
A far better solution ... in my opinion at least ... for a noiseless 'single coil', is a 'split' design ... where three strings are sensed by one coil ... and the other three are sensed by a RWRP coil. Both pickups are still in use and sensing 'string', as much sparkle as possible is kept ... and the whole shooting match is quiet.

Makes sense again, and some intriguing food for thought @TheGuitarWeasel.

Splits like the Fralin Dominos used on the PRS EGII, and probably a few other designs.

They should easily fit in a P90, mini HB or full HB shell.

Do you not get cross talk between 3rd and 4th strings though?  Or how is that eliminated?

And it presumably also gives the side effects you mentioned of RWRP pickups?

I hadn't really thought about Fender having a history of producing noiseless designs, apart from Lace Sensors and their later noiseless PUs, so thanks for putting the record straight ICBM

TheGuitarWeasel said:   ... it all goes a bit runny round the edges (a technical term used by pickup winders).

So are we back to your infamous family recipes here, or are we still talking pickups ???  

@TheGuitarWeasel said:   ...still, 'proof of the pudding is if it gives you the squirts' as me granddad used to say

 >:)      edit: those damn smilies have got it in for me I tell you - so I'm going to put this abortive one at the end of the post and be damned !

ICBM said:   I genuinely think the hum is part of the tone of a true single coil. If you eliminate the hum, you also take away some of the character of the pickup. It think it works as a subtle sort of 'carrier modulation'.

Surely that can't be right, I can see a theoretical backgroung for what you say, but I can't see it creating anything but an annoying signature, and can only be better without that.

edit: smilie from above put here - this is for Mr Weasles recepies *not* ICBM hummy single coil hypothesis (although come to think of it...)

>:)

OilCityPickups

ChrisMusic said:

Do you not get cross talk between 3rd and 4th strings though?  Or how is that eliminated?

And it presumably also gives the side effects you mentioned of RWRP pickups?

No more than you do on a P Bass. Only the hum is cancelled ... so crosstalk is not an issue. Because the coils are so close to being in the same 'plane' the tone problems associated with widely spaced RWRP pickups don't appear so prominently ... but they are still there.
And yes ... I'm with ICBM ... there's something a bit magic in that single coil 'rattle and hum' that is lost in noiseless designs.

ChrisMusic

Thanks @TheGuitarWeasel, I assume from what you said here that the issues with RWRP vary with pickup spacing.

I wonder if you could explain this a bit more please.

Including a re-run of the tonal compromises etc if possible.

It will certainly help the decision making process I am starting to go through, in planning some experimental pickup layouts and some serious switching options.

A little education goes a long way, so thanks.

edit: continued in a new discussion here

http://www.thefretboard.co.uk/discussion/4457/pickups-and-rwrp-how-much-difference-does-it-make-to-your-sound

(looks like I am well and truly out-gunned on the 'rattle and hum' magic issue then)