The old low watt amp discussion

Danny1969

For me playing bigger amps unmiced doesn't work as I don't want to stand in front of anything that loud ..... and if it's filling the room with sound then your gonna fill the brunt of it in your ears. So then you gotta use plugs with filters which change the sound and you basically have what I call a ME ME  mix ........ I expect someone the other side of the stage in the band could be playing a different song and you wouldn't notice ........... The amount of times bands record in my studio and someone plays something wrong and then they say "I've always played that! " ............ just reinforces the point a lot of guys in bands in front of loud amps just can't really hear what everyone else is doing .... not with any clarity!

I really enjoy hearing exactly what the other guys are doing using IEM's so for me little amp mic'ed is great. I could mic a bigger amp but a little one will do. For rehearsals in a decent rehearsal room (my own at 2020) I still find the 5 Watt BS ok unmic'ed and that's with some pretty enthusiastic drummers playing in my Thin Lizzy Trib and my rock covers bands. 

skay

But a 30 watt amp running at 60-70% of it's output sounds different to a small amp running flat out producing the same volumes, plus adding pedals to the small amp (especially modulation) results in things just falling apart and it starts getting very messy IMHO.

I prefer the slightly bigger amp (half way up on the volume dial of a 28 Watt Rambler is not obnoxious in terms of loudness) that's not being throttled so I can coax some big warm cleans and add overdrive and modulation sounds from pedals without the amp adding anything I haven't dialled-in myself, so my sound is consistent in various sized rooms.

I can hear everything clearly on stage without having all the amps mic'd up, amp stands help and I only listen to the drums and vocals half the time anyway...

ICBM

Teetonetal said:

Sassafras said:

I don't think you can set a specific minimum wattage for live playing. I've used 5 watt amps and cut through, on other occasions I've used 30 watts and been swamped.

The interesting thing there is stage sound vs audience sound. 

Assume you are playing without monitors? If so, next time you feel swamped with a big amp, get a wireless go out in to the room and I bet in nearly every case you will be the sound that dominates everything else. I don't find this with small amps, they give you a much better on stage sound (IME). Of course it might be that your just having volume wars...

I find the exact opposite - for me, it's much easier to get a good room-filling sound at moderate volume both on stage and out in the room with a big amp. Small amps tend to sound fine on stage but inaudible out in the room unless you're right in front of them, when they can be too loud… all at the same time - because they're usually quite directional and midrangy.

The problem with trying to specify a "minimum wattage" is that - even if you use the same speakers, which make a huge difference - both the human perception of volume, and the difference between clean headroom and continuous distorted power output, are so huge that it's quite possible to find that 5W is more than enough, and that 50W is not enough, *at the same apparent volume level*.

If that sounds impossible, compare these two sounds: on the one hand always at least slightly dirty, mostly single-note and 'small' chords, no or minimal effects, all midrange - ie traditional blues-rock type lead guitar - and on the other hand *strictly* clean (no clipping whatever), full barre chord rhythm, bandwidth-hungry effects, with deep bass - ie modern 'textural' sound. You will need at least ten times the power to achieve the second as the first, at the same volume - not least because the transients in a clean sound can be as much as 10dB above the average continuous level.

Most (not all) guitar players who use the first type of sound don't seem to understand that the second type exists or why it needs so much more power. Many of the first type don't understand what *clean* means, either. Rolling back the guitar volume and playing gently until you can't hear much obvious distortion is not a clean sound. Being able to hit the strings as hard as you want with a full chord and not have any audible breakup *at all* is a clean sound… and you will not get that at band volume with any 5W amp.

This is not to say that either approach is right or wrong, just that you can't say that because player X uses 5W and is plenty loud enough, that 5W is enough power for player Y. I've been both of them in totally different bands, been told my unmic'ed '59 Fender Champ was too loud and found that my 50W Mesa/Boogie wasn't quite loud enough to deliver the breadth of tone I wanted.

Pieces of string come in different lengths… all you can be reasonably sure of is that the right power for a gigging amp is somewhere between 1W and 100W. Probably.

Beexter

I'm with @ICBM on this. My first valve amp was a Laney Cub Head (15w) - prior to that, I was using solid state amps - either a Roland Cube 60 or a Tech21 TM60 - both 60 watts. The band I'm in plays a variety of covers across a range of genres and I needed loud cleans as referenced as Sound 2 in ICBM's post above - " and on the other hand *strictly* clean (no clipping whatever), full barre chord rhythm, bandwidth-hungry effects, with deep bass" Either of the two solid state amps could deliver this easily and be heard over the non-miced acoustic drummer. The 15w Laney couldn't do it - just disappeared from the mix as soon as the band got into full swing. But that's on *strictly* clean sounds only. Overdriven volumes were not a problem and could easily be heard. I've since replaced the Laney with a 50w Vox Night Train and no problems doing the loud, clean thing with that. I'm just not that taken with the drive sounds....I've also recently picked up a 30w Orange Rocker head and although I am yet to try that at rehearsal, I am fairly confident it might hit the sweet spot....

As has been said, there are no rights or wrongs and a big eye opener for me was the relatively small volume difference between running the Laney on the <1w setting vs the full 15w. I think the volume generated by your drummer will have a significant impact on what amp you can get away with if you want to go un-miced.

EdGrip

I've never gigged, but FWIW I've always preferred the sound at a gig where the guitarist has got the amp (small or large, though I seem to prefer small) into the PA. Otherwise, best case scenario is the guitarist has got the small amp up on a chair or something so it's beam is not pointing at anyone in particular, or turned to diffuse off a wall. Worst case is it's a really loud punk band, the guitarist has got a 100w halfstack turned right up and I find myself right in the beam of the 4x12.

(When we were young 'uns, we got my mate's JCM800 Zakk Wylde - 6550s and 120W, you'll recall - half stack and dragged it out into the garden and pointed it out over the open fields behind and turned it up to 10. We took it in turns playing while the other wandered round in the field. At about 30-40m, off axis was very quiet. But when you walked into the beam, which happened fairly suddenly, it was like someone had put a pair of really loud, tinny JCM800 headphones on your head. So, for a small outdoor crowd, without PA support a JCM800 sounds either inaudible or shit depending on where you're standing.)

Cirrus

EdGrip said:

(When we were young 'uns, we got my mate's JCM800 Zakk Wylde - 6550s and 120W, you'll recall - half stack and dragged it out into the garden and pointed it out over the open fields behind and turned it up to 10. We took it in turns playing while the other wandered round in the field. At about 30-40m, off axis was very quiet. But when you walked into the beam, which happened fairly suddenly, it was like someone had put a pair of really loud, tinny JCM800 headphones on your head. So, for a small outdoor crowd, without PA support a JCM800 sounds either inaudible or shit depending on where you're standing.)

That sounds like fun! 

)

One outdoor gig we did, I was really excited because I got to properly crank my AC30 and it sounded awesome up on stage. Then I walked out onto the grass and it was just awful. Scratchy, harsh, tinny... if it could be heard at all. Guitar cabs just don't project well unless they're being reinforced by a room. For that reason I've always worked on the idea that my tone needs to sound good where the mic goes. Unfortunately that ideal gets a bit murky when you can't use the PA or the sound guy's a bit ropey.

EdGrip

It WAS fun. XD

Danny1969

Outdoors is a different kettle of fish though .....  a snare drum that's loud as hell with a great crack sounds dull as hell outdoors as drums probably more than anything are effected by the room

Normally the further you get from the cab the duller it is outdoors as high frequencies lose their energy in air quicker than low frequencies. We can also perceive the direction of high frequencies easier though which is what people call the beam I guess