Your PA

EricTheWeary

thomasross20 said:

Phil, completely agree re singers!
Who do you think SHOULD pay, all or everybody who uses it?
Must admit it does grate a tad considering how much I've spent already. And it's left to us to research what PA too (given this thread!)

I think we're into part of the explanation why bands often have such poor PA. Having been burned on this in the past then joint ownership isn't something I'm keen on TBH.
For a covers or originals band doing the local pubs then any PA will be primarily for vocals and any experienced singer will have invested in something that does some justice to their vocals.
If you play functions then investing in decent PA for the whole band, sound guy, etc, is probably the next level up. However, for many bands the next level up might be playing a decent club or getting a good support in which case PA is supplied.

RocknRollDave

Our PA belongs to the band. It was bought outright by one member who was flush at the time, and the rest of us paid our shares back to him over time from our personal share of gig fees.
We also paid interest to him, which we thought was fair as he had in effect loaned us each a significant amount of money with only our spoken word that he'd ever get it back.

The deal with us - and, crucially, this was agreed BEFORE the PA was bought - is that if you leave the band, the PA stays with the band and your forfeit your share.

In some ways, it's a bit of a pain as I've paid a quarter (more, in fact, interest taken into account) towards that PA, and I'll be walking away with nothing, but the way I see it is that I have generated significantly more money back from the investment anyway, so it has long since been "paid for" in my mind.  The only grey area, really, is what happens if the band splits up..Presumably we'll sell it and all get a share back...but what if someone wants to keep it, will they buy the rest of us out..? Hmm..We'll see!

Phil_aka_Pip

@Rock'nRollDave, again, I think that's why you need an agreement. Even if it's a Gentleman's Agreement.

I'm a bit surprised that so many people think that if you ask for an agreement in writing it means you don't trust them. If you don't trust them you don't do business with them. Doing business means you put it in writing.

I remember some guys I used to drink with. One said of the other: "He's my best mate. I'd trust him with my life. But not my wallet"

John_P

It's often a case of tension unless someone already has gear they don't mind being used.     I like the solution of each person owning a part of the PA so if they leave you just replace that bit.

The other factor to consider is who carries and stores it.   I'm very lucky with two of my bands that someone has a pa and trailer - we all chip in for any repairs and servicing but in the past I've just bought it to save the hassle and hired it out when I'm not gigging.

ElectroDan

We use an analogue mixer. It's an Dynacord 24 channel thing. Not a compromise, and certainly not cheap.

There has been talk of going digital, and it will probably happen. But for a smaller band knocking out pub tunes every now and again, I would be sticking with an analogue unit.

ICBM

ElectroDan said:

We use an analogue mixer. It's an Dynacord 24 channel thing. Not a compromise, and certainly not cheap.

There has been talk of going digital, and it will probably happen. But for a smaller band knocking out pub tunes every now and again, I would be sticking with an analogue unit.

Same here. I prefer to stick with the minimum level of complexity possible, and I don't need or want all the extra features that going digital allows. If I'm playing at any gig large enough that any of those features become important, it's big enough to be someone else's problem.

Danny1969

Progress isn't for everyone I guess Certainly I enjoy the benefits, especially with the monitoring. I'm enjoying the best onstage mix's of my life via stereo IEM's and iPhone control . I also enjoy the multitrack recording facility. On our QU16 desk you just connect a USB harddrive and and it records everyone on their own track via 24 bit 48Khz with no laptop or audio interface necessary. I enjoy playing the gigs back and remixing them. Sometimes if someones taken some video I'll then line up the remixed audio to the vid before putting it on Youtube, shows the band in a better light than the crappy camera audio

These days with the difference in cost being so little I would pick something like a QU16 over a Mix Wizard because that has all you need to do everything. Imagine someone brought a Mix Wizard and then wanted a more consistent vocal level they would then have to buy a compressor, and then a cable to patch it in. Need a better more consistent  kick drum sound, well that's another compressor and another cable.  Then their band might want to try some IEM's but they would find the Mix Wizard doesn't have enough sends etc or any way to control the mixes remotely. 

Anyway I suppose I blab on about it tech like this because all this stuff to me makes a much bigger difference to being in a band then another drive pedal would or a change of pickups etc. So my advice to Thomas would actually be :

Sell your PRS's and use the money to buy some decent PA equipment

ElectroDan

It certainly can do some impressive things. One of our band members is young and into tech stuff. He is pushing for a move into the 21st century.

I have avoided progress so far. I guess it's easy to get stuck one way of doing something. I've not even gone on to in-ears, even though some of my mates that are older swear by them.

If anything I've gone backwards! From my guitar sound being digitally processed; I now go into a couple of pedals and a valve amp.

Phil_aka_Pip

Progress is good when it is real progress. When something doesn't work and there isn't a low tech fix, it isn't progress.

thomasross20

Sell the PRS? Noooo

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

Progress isn't for everyone I guess

No, I'm going backwards too! Most of my guitar gigs in the last few years have involved one of those new-fangled ones with a big round hole in the front, and a few of them not even with a cable plugged in . Next step: lute lessons .

To be honest for electric guitar I just enjoy the feel and sound of playing a guitar through an amp in a room, unmiked drum kit, vocals only through the PA, a couple of basic wedge monitors and that's it. I know very well it isn't as 'perfect' as what you can achieve with a full modern system like you use, but that's actually the point. I'd rather adjust how my amp sits in the mix by using the knobs on it or pointing it in a different direction than fiddling with my phone, and I want the acoustic space I'm playing in to be the room not a private one between my ears.

Yours,

Fred Flintstone

thomasross20

And lute lessons sound pretty tempting

thomasross20

Powered speaker or powered mixer? 

Or... separate power amplifier!?

thomasross20

ICBM said:

That Gear4Music is a cheap piece of junk. It may well work OK, but I wouldn't rely on it. There's also no facility to connect a monitor properly, although you could run a powered one from the FX send if you don't mind it getting the same mix as out front - although it depends whether the loop is pre- or post-graphic, which may limit your ability control feedback with it.

Crikey, I missed that when I read your first reply!! I have to say I agree. They got it for £100 and are hoping to do the same gig as last time with that (we used somebody else's PA last two times...)

thomasross20

I'm SERIOUSLY sh!tting myself now as out next gig is 30th May and we've got that gear4music "piece of junk" lol... I don't think the band quite realise the gravity of the situation.......!! 

(NOTE TO SELF: Look at DI boxes in case your amp ever blows - I know, unlikely for Blackstar )

thomasross20

@ICBM... you've been to one of our gigs, you know the sort of venue size and volume level. Do you think this would cut it?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-stagepas-600i-680w-portable-pa-system

And we could maybe rent a PA for bigger events if that was ever needed?

mike257

I definitely come down more on Danny's side of things, but then we both make our living as sound engineers so probably have a different slant on what constitutes 'decent' PA gear! I actually also own a HK Actor DX rig like Danny (although mine was bought used so lacks that lovely 5 year warranty) and would highly recommend it.

As far as ownership goes, I've done it two ways. Either the band has used my kit and I'm paid an extra share on gigs for "hire" (albeit far less than what I actually hire the stuff out for normally!) or we've bought kit collectively and when a member has left the band has "bought them out" with an equal share of the estimated value of the kit. This has been in busy function bands with a decent level of income though, so I can understand the relative difficulty for bands that are occasional pub giggers and don't have the same kind of cash flow.

As for the question of who pays and whether it's the singers responsibility, a good PA males the whole band sound better and in my view has always been a shared responsibility. As soon as you stick a mic in the bass drum or DI your acoustic for a couple of numbers, it's not just there for the singers backline, it's for all of you!

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

(NOTE TO SELF: Look at DI boxes in case your amp ever blows - I know, unlikely for Blackstar )

I would be more inclined to get some sort of mixer so you can stick the vocals through the FX return of your Blackstar .

Though the Gear4Music is probably not *that* likely to die if it's like the similar-looking LEEM ones - actually not too badly made inside, although I have got a dead one that wasn't worth repairing...

thomasross20 said:

@ICBM... you've been to one of our gigs, you know the sort of venue size and volume level. Do you think this would cut it?

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/pro-audio/yamaha-stagepas-600i-680w-portable-pa-system

Yes, easily. Half that would probably be enough - but more is better if you can afford it, since you'll be running it less hard so it will sound better and probably be completely reliable.

thomasross20 said:

And we could maybe rent a PA for bigger events if that was ever needed?

If you're playing anywhere big enough that Yamaha won't cut it, you probably need to hire a PA and a soundman. Some bands do own their own larger PAs, but they need to get familiar with how they set up and work. Don't just hire a big PA and try to use it yourselves unless you have someone in the band who does that sort of thing.

thomasross20

@mike257. Agreed!! 

Well... our PA (I had no hand in it...) cost £100 second-hand and you can see what it's like. I seriously doubt they're wanting to put in even £100 each (!!) but I'll chat tonight and see who's willing to put in what to see how serious they all are about it. 

thomasross20

I'd like to do the PA thing but with work and guitar I don't have much time right now. You've seen the band - I dno't think we'll be doing anything too complex, PA-wise. 

So the speakers in the stagePAS600 are 340W each. If we have monitors that will cut the power we can give them. But you reckon 680W total power for speakers is ok for a pub gig, that's a good sort of metric? There must be a guide online as to required power for specific venue. 

Honestly - the stagePAS looks simple enough, light enough, and relatively cheap. I reckon the band would go for it if it will do - and hopefully it has enough headroom (like you say, more is better).