The Rugby Union Thread

tbm

lloyd said:

I agree on location and allocation-you find a way to get a ticket and you'll go anywhere to watch the game-if you're interested.

What's behind the empty seats in your opinion? 

Too much rugby with WC and 6N recently?

English clubs playing each other too often?

Whatever it is it's a shame that the sport can't sell out a European Cup semi-final regardless of the teams.

Plain old lack of interest in the competition. With Irish and French teams winning so much in the last 7/8 years the interest in it has fallen off in England.

There was always something a bit off about the tone in which the Pro12 was/is discussed by certain fans and writers in the UK. The lack of relegation and presence of the Italian teams was presented as the reason the English couldn't win the H Cup, not because the French and Irish teams were just better. Yes Irish (and Welsh) teams could rest some front line players for some games e.g. against your Treviso's, but the discussion ignored the fact that Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams don't have the pockets of the English and French clubs. Using those games to develop academy players and give the front liners a rest is vital. Scarcens, Tulon and Clermont don't have that worry, because so many of their massive squad not playing in the 6Ns. Also, the notion that Premiership and T14 teams didn't rest frontliners against struggling teams is total bollox.

I think if the qualifying criteria had been left exactly as it was and the structures hadn't changed you'd still see the same two teams int he final this year. Irish, Welsh and Scottish teams aren't around at the business end this time around because they haven't played well enough to be. But this notion floating around that order has been restored bothers me, especially when if Ulster and Glasgow were playing a WCC semi, it would probably sell out. The wealthy T14 and English clubs have gotten exactly what they wanted, and the fans really don't care.  

lloyd

I would have thought that the big English presence would have re-ignited that passion/interest though.

It's a shame as a European tournament with more clubs competing in it benefits the NH massively. I really hope that we sort the game out with regards to this.

The Irish teams did have deep pockets until recently, which translated to success on the pitch-which is pretty much how pro sport goes. I think I'm right saying the IRFU are giving them less money these days which again translates to the pitch?

 

tbm

lloyd said:

I would have thought that the big English presence would have re-ignited that passion/interest though.

It's a shame as a European tournament with more clubs competing in it benefits the NH massively. I really hope that we sort the game out with regards to this.

The Irish teams did have deep pockets until recently, which translated to success on the pitch-which is pretty much how pro sport goes. I think I'm right saying the IRFU are giving them less money these days which again translates to the pitch?

 

Compared to the likes of Clermont and Bath, the Irish provinces don't have deep pockets. They IRFU also have restrictions in place as to the amount of non-Irish qualified players there can be in positions that apply across all the provenances. E.g Leinster can't import an non-Irish scrum half, because Ulster have Pienaar on their books. Leinster and Munster were successful for so long because of POC, ROG, BOD, Heaslip, Sexton, Stringer, D'Arcy etc, not because the IRFU had deep pockets. All those players turned down more money to play in France in their prime. Only Sexton went, though POC would have gone owing Munster or Ireland nothing had it not been for that Injury.

Yeah it is mad that there isn't more interest from the English clubs. Even Leicester with their European history, couldn't fill the City Ground.

lloyd

tbm said:

lloyd said:

I would have thought that the big English presence would have re-ignited that passion/interest though.

It's a shame as a European tournament with more clubs competing in it benefits the NH massively. I really hope that we sort the game out with regards to this.

The Irish teams did have deep pockets until recently, which translated to success on the pitch-which is pretty much how pro sport goes. I think I'm right saying the IRFU are giving them less money these days which again translates to the pitch?

 

Compared to the likes of Clermont and Bath, the Irish provinces don't have deep pockets. They IRFU also have restrictions in place as to the amount of non-Irish qualified players there can be in positions that apply across all the provenances. E.g Leinster can't import an non-Irish scrum half, because Ulster have Pienaar on their books. Leinster and Munster were successful for so long because of POC, ROG, BOD, Heaslip, Sexton, Stringer, D'Arcy etc, not because the IRFU had deep pockets. All those players turned down more money to play in France in their prime. Only Sexton went, though POC would have gone owing Munster or Ireland nothing had it not been for that Injury.

Yeah it is mad that there isn't more interest from the English clubs. Even Leicester with their European history, couldn't fill the City Ground.

France and England financially are above the rest yes, but Ireland for a time were in a chasing pack, followed then by Wales, Scotland and Italy.

I'm not sure I wholly agree with the success being down to your Irish lads, you had pockets deep enough (backed up with tax breaks) to persuade Cullen, Howlett, de Villiers, Thorne etc over, something that Wales, Scotland and Italy wouldn't have been able to do.

Irish players turned foreign money down as they were given tax breaks in accordance with Irish law and large portions of their wage was then repaid through pension payments if you look into it if I recall. They weren't losing out on a great deal. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Anyway it's not a pissing contest and the cash seems to have dried up for the Provinces, but still you have some European Cups and the crowds are still relatively high.

Rugby needs to drag from the bottom up rather than push the higher ups higher or it will die a slow death IMO.

lloyd

Harry Robinson (23) forced to retire from rugby due to a neck injury, poor fucker.

crunchman

Rob Andrew is going!

scrumhalf

crunchman said:

Rob Andrew is going!

No-one knows what he's not going to be responsible for next. I hear Nigel Melville is to replace him.

koneguitarist

At least @gassage will be happy Squeaky is gone.

kjdowd

scrumhalf;1056531" said:

crunchman said:

Rob Andrew is going!

.

Long past time.

Gulliver

Watching highlights of Northampton v Bath... Reminded me how annoying Wayne Barnes is as referee - he seems unable to make a decision without checking the TMO

lloyd

Watching the Super Rugby now, it's so much better than the shit served up in the Pro12. Embarrassingly so. We in the NH really need to copy their format and get France and England on board. I'd love to see some Welsh lads go over to the Super Rugby (and get picked for Wales afterwards unlike Gareth Delve) and improve their skills, coaches included but it seems they are happy with the status quo.

lloyd

Example, the highlanders just scored in the corner, quick take and gives by two players in traffic to put Manolo in at the corner....a Hooker and the Tight Head Prop. You simply don't see our guys doing that and that's systematic of both Hemispheres, 1-15 in the SH are rugby players, regardless of the shirt on their back, up here you have a mixture of forwards and back with some being superb at their primary roles but not backing it up in other areas.

koneguitarist

When I took our lads from Sherborne on tour about 10 years back to Wales, the difference between the sides and how they looked at game was remarkable.

In England we generally put players into their set position much earlier and they often stay there. That way they go up through different age groups as a prop or 2nd row for instance and learn the skill set more suited to that role. 

In Wales however, they seem to coach lads how to kick, pass off each hand run with the ball etc, and this doesn't matter be they a prop, 2nd row or scrum half. 

Standing up on a banking looking down on the game I could tell nationality of the team by the way they played. Point is neither view is completely right or wrong, just different ways to skin a cat so to speak but also to develope a style that works with our weather, relegation set ups and also the lack of school time allocated to Rugby in UK. Neither single thing is a big reason but adding all the issues up we are at a disadvantage to the SH due to the way we approach the game from child to adult. 

There have been quite a few players from the North that have gone south whilst young and developed well, and there have been quite a few from the SH who have failed to get to grips with the way the game is played up north. In my opinion it's not just the skill levels or fitness it's the way we approach the game up North as winning is all that matters.

I remember watching a Bath V Gloucester game a few years back in worst conditions I have seen for donkeys years, sheet rain, a real mud bath on pitch, yet the handling and tries scored that day were fantastic, so yes we can play skilful up tempo rugby but we often choose not to for a reason. 

tbm

To be fair if you look at the Connacht and Glasgow - the two form teams in the Pro12 - they're playing a 15 man game with offloading props and locks popping up on the wing. Great tries are being scored and an expansive game is being played. That's thanks to Lam and Townsend. I've said it before, I'd LOVE Townsend at Leinster, but he'll get the Scottish gig next. By a mile the best indigenous ref in these islands.

lloyd

tbm said:

To be fair if you look at the Connacht and Glasgow - the two form teams in the Pro12 - they're playing a 15 man game with offloading props and locks popping up on the wing. Great tries are being scored and an expansive game is being played. That's thanks to Lam and Townsend. I've said it before, I'd LOVE Townsend at Leinster, but he'll get the Scottish gig next. By a mile the best indigenous ref in these islands.

Aye and look at where they are in the league. The big problem is the intensity at which the game is played, or lack of it. Week in week out they are playing against average players in many positions and imports that don't set the world alight in the SH become the stars of the Pro12. Mentioned it before but international games see players cover 75 metres per minute, Super rugby is slightly below, European Cup rugby slightly below that then Pro12 is down to 55-60. The step up is noticeable and I think a big reason why the SH dominate us, they are used to making decisions under pressure and fatigued, I don't think that they necessarily have much better players genetically, they're all human beings and we do produce players that could get into their sides but not enough. Every sportsman on the planet will tell you that playing with and against better players improves your game, we need to concentrate the games we play and the player pools that play in them to make all the games more competitive against better players, a super European cup, how it would work I'm not sure but Wales IMO can only produce 2 top club/regional teams. The domestic structure in Europe needs to be overhauled, but England and France have strong leagues and the clubs won't vote to change the set up, but for international rugby, I think that they need to as the gap is widening.

digitalscream

Wait, did I miss something?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36242484

Farrell's not in the squad for the SH tour, but Ford and Cipriani are? 

Interesting choice, and quite welcome...

scrumhalf

It's a training squad.

"Players from Saracens, Exeter, Wasps and Leicester - who are in the Premiership semi-finals - will not attend the 17-19 May camp."

digitalscream

Ahh, fair enough. Didn't read closely enough.

Still, I live in hope.

eSully

Talk of moving the 6 nations to April, supported by the English players union at least. Personally I'd be in favour of this too, I think it would be great for the season here plus playing in April might see a better quality of rugby being played thanks to the weather.

tbm

Anyone watching the biggest game in European Club Rugby?