Sound guy

thomasross20

What do you do if you play a venue without a sound guy? Who controls your desk if something goes wrong mid-performance?

rossyamaha

I'm usually the guy the does the sound. Only because I've had the training. Digital desks help all this along these days with the ability to eq/ mix on an ipad at soundcheck to get everything right but for many years, we had the desk on stage, close to me and I would tweak as necessary during the gig. It does of course mean that I can add as much of me as I see fit. 

Danny1969

All the bands I play in have thier own dedicated sound engineers and most of my friends bands do as well. You can't do a professional mix yourself from the stage and even if you set it up so the sounds balanced for one song it probably will need adjusting for other material .......... Unless your Ac Dc

There's a pool of engineers we can turn to in portsmouth if need be . For tonight's gig our normal guy is mixing at a theatre in brighton so we've using another guy from the pool. Tonight is a wedding so the mix will be via iPad which is par for the course these days

thomasross20

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

Danny1969

thomasross20 said:

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

That's the trouble mate, most bands don't think a sound guy is worth the expense, they don't think spending a couple of thousand on a decent PA is worth the expense. Anything other than their OWN gear isn't worth paying for!

And then they wonder why they only gig the Dog & Duck for £200 !

I do freelance sound for bands, you can make any band sound more polished and professional if you know what your doing and have a nice desk and PA

thomasross20

Totally agree Danny.
Lol to the dog and duck

mike_l

thomasross20 said:

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

She can do it, only if she gives the whole band a blow job.

And then only if supervised by a proper soundman, who knows what he's doing. 

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

Not a problem if she's willing to learn to do it properly. Which doesn't mean standing next to the desk and asking "which knob does that?" when someone complains about the mix…

If she really wants to learn to do it and the desk/mixer amp is simple, it's not actually too hard. Essentially all you need to know is which knob does what, roughly what a good mix sounds like - which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone who has ever listened to recorded music - and some simple theory of how to maximise headroom and deal with feedback. But they need to *want* to learn, not be imposed on to do it.

It's actually possible to do it from the stage if you have to. I've been in several bands where I have done the mixing and played at the same time - as long as you set it up really well at the soundcheck so you don't usually have much to fix during the gig it's quite possible.

thomasross20

Problem is, will she come with us to do Glasgow gigs and gigs until 2am etc....

Think it'd be better if the desk was near one of us and we tweaked it ourselves. 

John_P

imo there's a knack to mixing from the stage that comes from being very used to the sound of the band and being able to make an educated guess about how it sounds out front.      Having someone musical in the audience can be helpful to give you a nod if something isn't quite right.  

I refuse to let any band members mates or partners do the sound unless I know that they know what they're doing.  It's not that hard to do but it's too easy to make a mess of it and I don't want to rush across the room mid song to cure a howl of feedback.    

Having an extra member who sorts the sound and helps lug the PA gear for a share of the gig money is great IF they know what they're doing otherwise but if the band doesn't have a good PA then just hire someone. 

thomasross20

Noooo... so we had a practice today and the bassist's girlfriend did the sound. Nice person, met her before, nothing against her. Was told our last gigs were too loud in volume and I agreed. Also told that my guitar was too loud and I agree to an extent but I admit it did rub me up the wrong way. I've heard it one too many times but thing is, I always check with the sound guy (somebody else who we've had) and he's said it is good and it sounds good listening back to recordings... also the people who say this are th ones sitting right next to my amp!

So this time I really lowered the volume and they complained it was too low. Got it up to a decent level and was told again it was too loud. So I played so low in volume you could barely hear it. Things almost fell apart as to be honest, what I play is core to a lot of the tunes and they couldn't take their cues. However they kept plugging on and for the last two songs I literally played with zero volume and nobody said a thing - in fact they were nodding as if to say "this sounds great" (lol) - what a p!sstake! In my opinion the loudest thing there was the bass, and his girlfriend told him it could be louder....!! I wasn't happy, I have to admit. 

Call it throwing the toys out of the pram... probably it is.... but next gig I plan to play SUPER LOW in volume because I'm not getting accused again of being too loud. I fully expect it to be awful but if that's the way the want it...

mike_l

Sounds a bit shit TBH @thomasross20  IF your bassist insists she does the sound, then consider getting another bassist.

Fair do's there needs to be some volume, but not so much that the bass is drowning out the guitars (or vice versa) and not so little that the musicians can't hear themselves. Especially if they're taking cues from one in particular.

John_P

Just join another band - every post you make about them reminds me of time I've wasted in the past with the wrong bands. Use your existing gigs to network and let people see you play and find a band with some more experience and common sense. 

thomasross20

I think I'm going to take @John_P's advice. Problem is there;s next to bugger all in Edinburgh. 

Do you think it'd be a d!ck thing to play with low volume next gig? Really tired of getting told my guitar is too loud when to be honest, people tell me the guitar is one of the best bits in the band. There, I said it!

Danny1969

This comes up all the time but I'll repeat myself anyway 

The easiest way to get a decent sound is to mic everything up, keep backline to a sensible level and have a spread of everything coming out the PA. That way your hearing will last longer, you won't get someone sitting near your guitar being deafened by you as your onstage volume won't need to be as loud and then someone out front can actually mix it rather than just saying stuff like "can you turn down or can you turn up" .... I mean that's not what I call "doing sound"

I use IEM's so I don't have a clue what the mix sounds like out front and I don't have to .... it's not my job. The band are supposed to concentrate on playing. Gigging is like any other aspect of life, different people are needed and paid to do what's necessary to achieve professional results. I trust the guys we use because they know exactly what they are doing.  

The setup and have a listen out front system before the gig doesn't work and here's why. Our perception of volume is directly linked to frequency .... we hear upper mid \ upper mid frequencies easier then low. So lets take a backing vocal like the low one in Paradise City and set out backing vocal accordingly so it sits right in the mix next to the lead vocal. Now lets do the high backing vocal to Living on a Prayer .... do you think we can leave the backing vocal  fader where it is for both songs ? No we can't because the 2nd songs harmony vox is higher and generally sung with more power. Can we back off the mic when we do a loud high harmony .... well we can a bit but not enough to compensate properly and the further you get off the mic the more drum spill there is in it. When your mixing a band and have a setlist  your aware of what's coming up, who's singing what and you have to adjust accordingly ..... 

And the above is just backing vocals. A lead singer needs constant adjustment in terms of small rides even when compressed. When the guitar solo comes up you can just let him use a boost but generally as a soundman you take care of that and make more room in the mix by dipping something else. 

A person can learn some basics to do a good job on FOH mixing with one band and one particular set of equipment but to be well versed in mixing across a variety of bands and different PA's and desks takes years of experience  

thomasross20

Danny, fully agree. 

Ideally we all go through PA...

Sorry to ask again but what amp do you use? If going through PA then no need for some huge beast.

Grunfeld

Danny1969 said:

When your mixing a band and have a setlist  your aware of what's coming up, who's singing what and you have to adjust accordingly .....

I fear I would bollox that up.  Last night I went into The Clash's "Should I Stay..." only to notice our singer doing it in a Beatles wig.  I'd read the set list wrong again #-o

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Noooo... so we had a practice today and the bassist's girlfriend did the sound. Nice person, met her before, nothing against her. Was told our last gigs were too loud in volume and I agreed. Also told that my guitar was too loud and I agree to an extent but I admit it did rub me up the wrong way. I've heard it one too many times but thing is, I always check with the sound guy (somebody else who we've had) and he's said it is good and it sounds good listening back to recordings... also the people who say this are th ones sitting right next to my amp!

So this time I really lowered the volume and they complained it was too low. Got it up to a decent level and was told again it was too loud. So I played so low in volume you could barely hear it. Things almost fell apart as to be honest, what I play is core to a lot of the tunes and they couldn't take their cues. However they kept plugging on and for the last two songs I literally played with zero volume and nobody said a thing - in fact they were nodding as if to say "this sounds great" (lol) - what a p!sstake! In my opinion the loudest thing there was the bass, and his girlfriend told him it could be louder....!! I wasn't happy, I have to admit. 

Call it throwing the toys out of the pram... probably it is.... but next gig I plan to play SUPER LOW in volume because I'm not getting accused again of being too loud. I fully expect it to be awful but if that's the way the want it…

It sounds like the band just needs more experience at getting the sound right. Was the practice in a room with the same layout as the stage, or a more typical practice with everyone facing inwards? Did you have your amp on the floor, raised up or pointing at the soundperson? Positioning makes a huge difference. It's quite possible for it to be too quiet in one place and too loud in another.

The next problem I am beginning to anticipate is that she thinks she can set all the levels at the practice and then expect them to be the same at the gig… you can't. That's why you have an out-front soundman, because it will be different.

For what it's worth when I saw you last time I thought the mix was fine, you were about the right volume and so was everyone else. The bass was maybe a bit quiet if I remember right - I don't think he was using a very good amp, but I could be remembering it wrong.

Don't turn down too far on purpose, that will just spoil the gig for everyone. You *can* make it work without putting everything through the PA, but it's probably more difficult if you're not used to the idea. If you don't want to be accused of being too loud, make sure you point the amp away from the rest of the band and preferably not directly out front either. If necessary point it at the wall, or tilt it back. (See Bruce Springsteen's Marshall cabs for an extreme solution to this!)

Your amp has a speaker-emulated DI, so you can put it through the PA if there's a spare channel without needing to worry about mics or feedback etc… that may help. Also take a very long lead so you can go out front at the soundcheck and have a listen to the mix for yourself. At least that way if you disagree with the soundperson you will know roughly how much by, so you can try to compromise rather than going too far the other way.

The sound at a pub gig is never going to be perfect like a record - to me that's part of the charm of it up to a point. As long as you can hear every instrument and none is overpoweringly loud, no-one will remember it afterwards, they'll just remember how well you played.

thomasross20

Going to work so short reply:

Room was large airy but you're right - they're trying to set up the volume for that room as far as I can tell. 

Good point about pointing the amp away!! I will try that for sure..!!

You're right about bass - he got a new amp. 

I'd love Danny's set up but it's not going to happen for us, right now anyway. 

Hold on, my amp goes straight into the PA? I thought I needed a separate DI box incase it ever blew out. I'll need to look into that - I've been so busy learning how to edit videos and program drums I haven't even got a handle on all the gear I have yet. If it has DI I'll be well pleased. 

Thanks!

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Hold on, my amp goes straight into the PA? I thought I needed a separate DI box incase it ever blew out. I'll need to look into that - I've been so busy learning how to edit videos and program drums I haven't even got a handle on all the gear I have yet. If it has DI I'll be well pleased.

Yes, the Blackstar ID has an emulated out which can be run directly to the PA with a 1/4" cable, no DI box really needed, although it's possible that it will cause a ground loop (hum). A plain DI box in between is probably better - and would also then enable you to run a backup pedal straight in as well. You don't need anything fancy, in fact a cheap passive (transformer balanced) one actually works better for guitar, in my opinion. You don't want it too hi-fi.

If you do need an active emulated one (which would be run from a NON-emulated output on the amp or a pedal) a friend of mine has a Hughes & Kettner Red Box for sale...

thomasross20

Agree best to have a separate DI in case the whole amp gets set on fire lol. 

WIll check that out but will be a while before I decide what to get - got so much on my plate just now