Sound guy

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Agree best to have a separate DI in case the whole amp gets set on fire lol. 

WIll check that out but will be a while before I decide what to get - got so much on my plate just now

OK. I have the Red Box here if you want it, not sure of the price but whatever the 'going rate' is probably. It's the Classic model not the 5.

Cirrus

thomasross20;787100" said:

...I've heard it one too many times but thing is, I always check with the sound guy (somebody else who we've had) and he's said it is good and it sounds good listening back to recordings... also the people who say this are th ones sitting right next to my amp!...

...However they kept plugging on and for the last two songs I literally played with zero volume and nobody said a thing - in fact they were nodding as if to say "this sounds great" (lol) - what a p!sstake!...

Righty.

I once got similarly annoyed with my band for not seeming to care whether or not they could hear me, so for a song I turned the tone on my guit right down, then on the amp I set treble to zero, bass to max and tone cut to max so I had the most ludicrously muffled sound you could imagine. I did it quietly while they were faffing about before the song so no one noticed.

After we'd played, and I really had been struggling to keep a straight face, I asked them what they thought of that last run through, how did the band sound, and they all thought it sounded fine - nods, smiles, a couple of minor musical critiques - not that tight going into the final chorus etc. I directly asked how my amp sounded, if my tone worked for it, and they just said it was fine.

I mean, it wasn't fine. It was a fucking horrible sound.

But I learned a lesson - as a guitarist the other guys in the band aren't listening to you very often. Their perspective is all about their part, their tone, how they're playing, and that they have the auditory cues to stay tight - almost entirely the drums and the vocals in most bands. As a guitarist, the lesson isn't to feel it as a blow to your ego. It's to realise that you are the sole person who's going to fight your corner. That doesn't mean developing a huge persecution complex or turning into one of those bastards who is too loud, but it does mean that you can't let a bunch of people who don't really care where the guitar is sitting in the mix get to you. If you think your parts are integral to the music rather than incidental backing and you also think you're too quiet, then you're the only one who's going to do something about it.

Obviously a good, impartial soundman wouldn't let that happen. But don't let someone who doesn't really know what they're doing ruin the band sound.

Personally, I set my amp as quiet as it can be for the stage setup. But no quieter if it's going to ruin my performance, unless there's a very good reason.

Some of the tension might come from the contrasting musical roles of the guitar - sometimes it's an accompanying instrument, just playing some chordal backing or providing textural shade - but it can also be the main melodic instrument in many bands as well, and as such in that role it often calls for being front and centre. What's the point of having an important melodic voice buried while the accompanying parts - the bass and the drums - get pushed up?

thomasross20

I'd have been well p!ssed with your bandmates after that! What a joke!

thomasross20

I just told the bassist he was too loud. Singers agree, the floor was shaking. 

Strange, we had 4 hours and if guitar was turned down and vox couldn't be heard, you'd think it would be detected that the bass was rumbling the floor..

Other issue is, bassist wants to play a whole bunch of songs at ~ 2x speed because it "gives them more energy" - it'll exhaust us and the time we have to play. Not in favour of that so have aired that, too.

Apologies - I'm in a grumpy mood.

Danny1969

thomasross20 said:

Danny, fully agree. 

Ideally we all go through PA...

Sorry to ask again but what amp do you use? If going through PA then no need for some huge beast.

Well I'm in 4 bands and one of them is  sponsored so in that band I have a Marshall rack system but in the other 3 I use a simple Blackstar HT5 head and a 1 x 12" combo ..... always mic'ed up no matter how small the gig

You see the hard true fact is most of your band mates can't hear you properly when you gig simply because most muso's go for what I call an EGO mix ..... as in 80% of them and 20% of the rest of the band. They can't hear you because they are stood in front of their own amp or sat behind their own drum kit and the volume of that far outweighs what they hear from you. It's just physics and the louder you play the more people have to have an EGO mix. I've also noticed the older people get the more this holds true too and for those suffering from hearing loss which is ironically caused by loud ego mix's

I wouldn't go back to not using IEM's. I really enjoy listening to the other guitarist in my band and the keyboard player in the other bands. When you can hear in detail exactly what the other guys doing you can lock in harmony perfectly in terms of phrasing. And it sounds great, like a studio mix. The down side is you can hear every little imperfection like a note not fingered correctly or a clipped keyboard note and they can obviously hear every little fuck up you make but that's kinda the point, it forces you to be a better band

EricTheWeary

Cirrus;787601" said:

thomasross20;787100" said:...I've heard it one too many times but thing is, I always check with the sound guy (somebody else who we've had) and he's said it is good and it sounds good listening back to recordings... also the people who say this are th ones sitting right next to my amp!...



...However they kept plugging on and for the last two songs I literally played with zero volume and nobody said a thing - in fact they were nodding as if to say "this sounds great" (lol) - what a p!sstake!...





Righty.

I once got similarly annoyed with my band for not seeming to care whether or not they could hear me, so for a song I turned the tone on my guit right down, then on the amp I set treble to zero, bass to max and tone cut to max so I had the most ludicrously muffled sound you could imagine. I did it quietly while they were faffing about before the song so no one noticed.

After we'd played, and I really had been struggling to keep a straight face, I asked them what they thought of that last run through, how did the band sound, and they all thought it sounded fine - nods, smiles, a couple of minor musical critiques - not that tight going into the final chorus etc. I directly asked how my amp sounded, if my tone worked for it, and they just said it was fine.

I mean, it wasn't fine. It was a fucking horrible sound.

But I learned a lesson - as a guitarist the other guys in the band aren't listening to you very often. Their perspective is all about their part, their tone, how they're playing, and that they have the auditory cues to stay tight - almost entirely the drums and the vocals in most bands. As a guitarist, the lesson isn't to feel it as a blow to your ego. It's to realise that you are the sole person who's going to fight your corner. That doesn't mean developing a huge persecution complex or turning into one of those bastards who is too loud, but it does mean that you can't let a bunch of people who don't really care where the guitar is sitting in the mix get to you. If you think your parts are integral to the music rather than incidental backing and you also think you're too quiet, then you're the only one who's going to do something about it.

Obviously a good, impartial soundman wouldn't let that happen. But don't let someone who doesn't really know what they're doing ruin the band sound.

Personally, I set my amp as quiet as it can be for the stage setup. But no quieter if it's going to ruin my performance, unless there's a very good reason.

Some of the tension might come from the contrasting musical roles of the guitar - sometimes it's an accompanying instrument, just playing some chordal backing or providing textural shade - but it can also be the main melodic instrument in many bands as well, and as such in that role it often calls for being front and centre. What's the point of having an important melodic voice buried while the accompanying parts - the bass and the drums - get pushed up?

I only have a couple of learned ( ie note for note) solos to do in my band ( and nothing rocket science) and I managed to completely screw one up on the last gig. I mentioned it after and no one else had noticed. The drummer also said about how he'd played the wrong pattern on something. Again none of the rest of us had noticed. Unless it's something that gives a cue to the band then generally they're not really listening (I couldn't tell you what the keyboard or the other guitar are doing most of the time). I'm not saying that's right but I think that's how it is for us weekend warriors.

EricTheWeary

thomasross20;787630" said:

I just told the bassist he was too loud. Singers agree, the floor was shaking. Strange, we had 4 hours and if guitar was turned down and vox couldn't be heard, you'd think it would be detected that the bass was rumbling the floor..Other issue is, bassist wants to play a whole bunch of songs at ~ 2x speed because it "gives them more energy" - it'll exhaust us and the time we have to play. Not in favour of that so have aired that, too.

Apologies - I'm in a grumpy mood.

Our last couple of gigs have been with a dep drummer who normally plays in a band that covers much of the same stuff but at 2x speed. Mare. I think songs should have a groove and an energy but you have to know where that sweet spot is and its generally at the tempo of the original because that's part of why it was a successful song. You can get energy from being tight, locking in the groove - if your bassist wants to substitute that with speed he hasn't got the approach I'd want from a covers bass player.

Danny1969

EricTheWeary said:

I only have a couple of learned ( ie note for note) solos to do in my band ( and nothing rocket science) and I managed to completely screw one up on the last gig. I mentioned it after and no one else had noticed. The drummer also said about how he'd played the wrong pattern on something. Again none of the rest of us had noticed. Unless it's something that gives a cue to the band then generally they're not really listening (I couldn't tell you what the keyboard or the other guitar are doing most of the time). I'm not saying that's right but I think that's how it is for us weekend warriors.

Yeah that's exactly the point I'm making, most people talk about balanced sound on stage and stuff but the the reality is they can only really hear themselves with any clarity 

@thomassross20 a Mackie DL1608 is £550 and a used iPad 2 is about £150. Throw in a a few £60 mics and your ready to enter the 21st century

thomasross20

Our rhythm guitarist just bought a new PA - will have to get the name of it. The instrumentalists have put all the money into the band - I thought she should have left the PA to the singers as they've only bought a mic each. 

I think we've ok equipment now, just no IEMs. 

It's too many cooks in the kitchen when it comes to PA so I step aside. 

Love your analogy of the EGO mix. I do listen to the other members as much as I can while trying to do my thing but I get your point there. Maybe I should suggest just mic'ing everything up and seeing if we have that capability. 

ICBM

Danny1969 said:

You see the hard true fact is most of your band mates can't hear you properly when you gig simply because most muso's go for what I call an EGO mix ..... as in 80% of them and 20% of the rest of the band. They can't hear you because they are stood in front of their own amp or sat behind their own drum kit and the volume of that far outweighs what they hear from you. It's just physics and the louder you play the more people have to have an EGO mix.

I can say this absolutely honestly - I have never done that.

It may be because I was a soundman before I was really a proper gigging guitarist, so I have a tendency to want to hear the mix correctly, and adjust my volume so it sounds right in that context - which actually produces the opposite problem if I'm in front of my own amp, and I have been asked to turn up more often than turn down.

If I'm ever asked to turn down by someone out front, I always will - for the very simple reason that if someone notices that the guitar (or bass if that's what I'm playing) is too loud, then it is… because they wouldn't notice otherwise. The same applies to 'too trebly'.

Not being able to hear the other musicians as clearly as you would like is certainly a problem, but positioning the amps goes a long way to solving that without resorting to turning them up, especially for guitar amps which are generally very directional, as are some types of bass cabs (sealed 4x10"s especially).

At the end of the day you just have to learn how to do this stuff right, and outside input is massively useful - how it sounds out front is *always* more important than how it sounds on stage.

jpfamps

Not listening to the band is the curse of the amateur musician.

Many players focus very much on their own sound to the exclusion of the rest of the band.

Certainly when I started playing in bands I hadn't been playing for very long so HAD to focus on what I was doing otherwise I would cock it up.

Now I'm much more experienced I don't need to focus solely on what I'm doing, so can listen to what other band members are playing. In fact that's probably my main asset as a musician; indeed this asset is essential in both the main bands I play in at the moment.

Interestingly I'm not particularly into the guitar as an instrument (hope I don't get banned from the Fretboard for this admission!), I've always been into bands. I play the guitar so I can play in a band.

jpfamps

Danny1969 said:

thomasross20 said:

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

That's the trouble mate, most bands don't think a sound guy is worth the expense, they don't think spending a couple of thousand on a decent PA is worth the expense. Anything other than their OWN gear isn't worth paying for!

And then they wonder why they only gig the Dog & Duck for £200 !

I do freelance sound for bands, you can make any band sound more polished and professional if you know what your doing and have a nice desk and PA

Some people's aspirations are to play at the Dog & Duck for £200; they have day jobs and playing in a band is a hobby.

The "buy an expensive PA and employ a sound man" solution is not really a practical solution for most bands.

Danny1969

jpfamps said:

Danny1969 said:

thomasross20 said:

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

That's the trouble mate, most bands don't think a sound guy is worth the expense, they don't think spending a couple of thousand on a decent PA is worth the expense. Anything other than their OWN gear isn't worth paying for!

And then they wonder why they only gig the Dog & Duck for £200 !

I do freelance sound for bands, you can make any band sound more polished and professional if you know what your doing and have a nice desk and PA

Some people's aspirations are to play at the Dog & Duck for £200; they have day jobs and playing in a band is a hobby.

The "buy an expensive PA and employ a sound man" solution is not really a practical solution for most bands.

True but oddly enough said hobby seems to call for ownership of £2k guitars and £1K amps :0)

You could buy a whole decent PA and a digital desk for less than Thomas paid for one of his guitars and that's par for the course in "hobby" guitar land

thomasross20

Hey come on, those were a treat for me - 15 years playing, it was my 30th birthday, I'd decided to do an album and I finally got in a band (difficult to do in Edinburgh IMO). I think singers always get off lightly when it comes to gear for the band...

ICBM

thomasross20 said:

Hey come on, those were a treat for me - 15 years playing, it was my 30th birthday, I'd decided to do an album and I finally got in a band (difficult to do in Edinburgh IMO). I think singers always get off lightly when it comes to gear for the band…

Most singers who don't also play simply have no idea how much the instruments cost - especially not if they're used to seeing guitars for £99 in Argos - so they go very quiet if you suggest spending a grand or more on some PA equipment, especially when they then realise the rest of the band want to put some of their instruments through it as well…

I *still* think that a half-decent vocal-only PA and backline can sound good in a small gig, but I fully admit it requires discipline and effort to make it do so. The problem is people who won't either put the effort in or even get half-decent equipment. Crap equipment sounds crap - that doesn't mean that you have to spend a fortune, but it does mean spending more than the bare minimum, and knowing what you're looking for.

For what it's worth I've mostly just accepted this when I was in bands which needed this sort of input, and just done it for them. This had the great advantage that the gear was mine afterwards, so no arguments. I know not everyone can afford to do that though (even if they haven't spent several grand on a guitar ).

thomasross20

 

I considered actually buying the PA before, but now it looks like we have a decent one. 

jpfamps

Danny1969 said:

jpfamps said:

Danny1969 said:

thomasross20 said:

I can't see our band paying too much for a sound guy. I would. Bassist wants his girlfriend to do it........

That's the trouble mate, most bands don't think a sound guy is worth the expense, they don't think spending a couple of thousand on a decent PA is worth the expense. Anything other than their OWN gear isn't worth paying for!

And then they wonder why they only gig the Dog & Duck for £200 !

I do freelance sound for bands, you can make any band sound more polished and professional if you know what your doing and have a nice desk and PA

Some people's aspirations are to play at the Dog & Duck for £200; they have day jobs and playing in a band is a hobby.

The "buy an expensive PA and employ a sound man" solution is not really a practical solution for most bands.

True but oddly enough said hobby seems to call for ownership of £2k guitars and £1K amps :0)

You could buy a whole decent PA and a digital desk for less than Thomas paid for one of his guitars and that's par for the course in "hobby" guitar land

You could buy very decent "boat anchor" PA system second hand for even less.

I've heard plenty of guitar players get a terrible sound with expensive gear. 

ICBM

jpfamps said:

I've heard plenty of guitar players get a terrible sound with expensive gear. 

So have I - about as many as get a great sound with fairly cheap stuff. There seems to be next to no correlation.

Decent gear just makes it slightly easier to go from good to great. Other than that it's all down to the player and the attitude they have to it.

Jeremiah

Interesting what people are saying about "EGO mixes" and people only listening to themselves.

I don't know if this is something other people experience or if it's just me, but I find it *really* hard to hear myself in any kind of mix, to the extent that if I can just barely hear myself then I know I am way too loud and everyone else will be complaining.

This is one reason why I can't sing in a band, because to get my voice up to a level where I could hear it well enough to hit the right notes, it would need to be ridiculously loud in the monitors and probably cause feedback. At least when I'm playing guitar or bass I know whether I'm playing the right notes by where my fingers are.

I guess IEMs could solve this, but I've never had the chance to try using them.

Danny1969

ICBM said:

jpfamps said:

I've heard plenty of guitar players get a terrible sound with expensive gear. 

So have I - about as many as get a great sound with fairly cheap stuff. There seems to be next to no correlation.

Decent gear just makes it slightly easier to go from good to great. Other than that it's all down to the player and the attitude they have to it.

There is no correlation to quality of sound and expense of guitar gear I don't think. The quality is in the playing and the effort that's gone into it over years of practice. Experienced players naturally intonate themselves across the fretboard, bend accurately and generally make whatever they are using sound good. 

@Jeremiah

I had the same problem with pitching backing vocals years ago. I had a wedge wound up in front of me and still couldn't do a very good job. Then one gig I simply taped a 3.5mm extension cable to my guitar lead and plugged some ear buds into it fed from the same feed the monitor had used. All of a sudden I could hear my vocal crystal clear and the volume of the rest of the band was reduced. I then went on to get proper Shure IEM's etc and wouldn't use a wedge now, they are a waste of time for anything other than putting your foot on and posing