Drummers. Why are most crap?

Cirrus

Danny1969 said:If you ever really want to see how good your drummer is record him with 2 overheads and see if you can mix it into a song.

Yes! What a great idea!

Drummer can't tune his kit? Can't balance the relative volumes of his kick/snare/toms/cymbals? Can't hit consistently? If he fails at any of those, the two mic test will pick it up.

thomasross20

I don't think it's fair to say that you're not great if you stick to the one style - maybe that's all the person likes! Rare to find a good drummer.

Teetonetal

thomasross20 said:

I don't think it's fair to say that you're not great if you stick to the one style - maybe that's all the person likes! Rare to find a good drummer.

No, sticking to one style is fine, especially at the pub gig level... Not being able to remember what you did last week is not... 

PolarityMan

Ok so I could write a book about this subject.

First of all timing.

I think a large part of the problem is that rapidly changing subdivisions is hard, doing it on multiple limbs even more so. This is why people who just play simple beats can appear to be tighter than people who are playing more intricate parts. I'm not a great drummer but I can hold time with simple beats, it's when I start doing fills that things start getting ropey timing wise.

You can extrapolate this principle to better drummer, who might be solid doing a straight 16ths roll round the toms but shake a bit if they move to triplets or start splitting rolls between hands and feet.

You can actually see the principle playing with guitar to a lesser extent too, try playing straight quarters to a click, pretty easy right, now try playing sixteenths, also pretty easy. Now start rapidly switching between quarters and sixteenths. Much harder to get tight right?

Anyway after acknowledging that intricate parts are harder than basic beats you then have a few chioces. Most cover bands opt for simple and tight but I find most cover bands fairly unsatisfying to watch, they are serving a need of a particular type of consumer and it's not me. I want my music to feel visceral not polite. Further the genre I play in the drum composition is hugely important to the music (metal). So just having someone sit back and nail basic beats isn't going to cut it.

So now we've established that sometimes what drummers are trying to play is hard to get tight and we've established it is only necessary in some types of music. So surely it just means practice right? 

Well in my experience there are several cultural issues that prevent drummer becoming tight. The first is that most don't fully acknowledge it's hard and so just don't bother doing the type of practice necessary to tighten up (click work). The second is the myth that the drummer "sets the beat".

This is total bullshit and leads to the very common belief that many drummers have that sloppy timing is somehow "feel" and more natural then playing to a click.

This couldn't be further from the truth, the internal metronome of a band is a collaborative entity and the *the instrument that has compositional focus should have the largest "pull" for the tempo.

This is obvious when you think about it, when you have sections with only one instrument and the drums doing nothing or maybe a supporting part like cymbal washes or high hat fiddles the instrument that is playing the part is clearly setting the tempo.

In a tight band everyone's internal view of the tempo is pretty much the same so you get very little push/pull, however most drummers completely disregard this notion and hammer on in the belief that everyone should follow their dictation of the tempo.

If you're in a band where everything speeds up as soon as the drums come in then you have this problem.

Now I'll move on to composition. People have already brought up playing for the song and over playing and I agree with everything they said but a problem I have in my band a lot is not necessarily over-playing per-se but not paying attention to orchestration in a whole band sense.

So good examples would be the guitars and bass playing a chugging muted pattern, in my opinion there are 2 valid approaches to drums. You could either closely copy the rhythm pattern of the other instruments with double bass. Or you could play a much sparser part.

What I find is our drummer often want to play a double bass drum rhythm but its like he has decided on what his part will be without listening to the actual music so it often chops up the existing rhythm.

Another example is fills that don't accent the same beats as a fill played on another instrument. Worst recent example is an intro part. In this part rhythmn guitar plays 3 bars and then an ascending run on the fourth bar in triplets. The bass and other guitar accent the first note of each triplet starting on beat 1 of bar 4.

Our drummer goes, I got this great fill that sounds like Bran Daillor and comes steaming in on beat 3 of bar 4. The fill itself isn't bad per-se but it needs to start 2 beats earlier to avoid the band as a whole sounding like we are making a shambolic entry.

These are examples of needing to play to the song but not in the way most people think, ie/ it isn't always about playing less, sometimes its about playing different but I think drummers in my experience think far less about whole band orchestration and the interplay between parts because of the idea that they are only there to "keep a beat" and the other incorrect social memes that pervade musical culture. At least in terms of rock music.

I don't want to sound too negative here as I reckon our drummer is pretty decent and I think what he is attempting to do is far far more difficult than many drummers that some of you guys would call "good" drummers, in my band most of these drummers wouldn't work*, but I do get frustrated by the fact that with a bit of effort and collaboration he could be a *great* drummer. 

*As an example look at someone like Gavin Harrison, sounds great in the heavy parts of Porcupine Tree, clearly has some chops but could you imagine him trading places with someone like Josh Freese, Danny Carey, Bran Daillor, Corey Taylor etc? He would sound awful in those contexts. To me this kinda highlights the difference between what makes a good session drummer and what makes a good metal drummer.

Teetonetal

nice post @Polarityman and yup, I agree with  that.

The interesting thing about Micheal Jerome was that he was interesting, varied and doing some crazy fills and noises at times.. but everything served the band. It was one of the most complete drummer performances I have seen. I felt when simple was required he was there nailing it, when crazy was required he was there nailing it and when fx was required, yup, he was there nailing it.

Yet on TV (like Jools) it just doesn't come across how good he is.

I wish I was in a good band, not an average one. I think it would be intimidating at first, but so much fun

axisus

Teetonetal said:

.... every week he played exactly the same... Definitely treating the drums as an instrument rather than a drum machine...

Surely that is the opposite???? Playing the same every week is the equivalent of a drum machine.

HollowAxis

This is total bullshit and leads to the very common belief that many drummers have that sloppy timing is somehow "feel" and more natural then playing to a click.

This is so so so true.

Drummer in my last band pulled this. I play by 'feel' .
I could feel he was off, I could feel the songs didn't work or the parts weren't right.
Fundamentally bad timing.

Teetonetal

axisus said:

Teetonetal said:

.... every week he played exactly the same... Definitely treating the drums as an instrument rather than a drum machine...

Surely that is the opposite???? Playing the same every week is the equivalent of a drum machine.

no, you miss the point. because you have lost the context from the preceding paragraph. He was not playing simple drum machine style beats, he was creating complex beats that fit the music and added texture and change. Rather than doing drummer pattern 102 for for 4 mins with random fills throw in, then next week coming back and playing pattern 104. Huge difference.

carlos

Danny1969

As much as I like a click for editing purposes there are times when I feel I want the song to push and the drummer can't cos of the click. We draw tempo maps sometimes but it's not quite the same

I always find it ironic that drummers with superb feel don't actually need a click cos you don't need to edit them. They might well speed up a little but sometimes that's what the song calls for. I doubt the Zepplin stuff would have been improved by a rigid click and that's some of my all time favorite drumming

Teetonetal

There's a big difference too between choosing to vary tempo and doing it because you can't help it...

slacker

I've been lucky in that the majority of drummers i have played with have been excellent. The comment re staying poor is correct IMHO. I played in a situation with a poor drummer who was so deluded by others claiming he was good, went on a two years paid course as a drummer and came back no better.

Operating an instrument is only one aspect. All of the poor drummers I played with had good limb independence and kept time ok, however they didnt feel the music or play anything approaching what was required by it and/or had no dialogue or telepathy. You couldnt f them up with syncopation cos they were not listening.

All of the good ones had a practice kit or practive room with one exception and he played 3 times a week with our band and was in two more.

 

 

 

HollowAxis

Teetonetal said:

There's a big difference too between choosing to vary tempo and doing it because you can't help it...

This.
Drummers don't have to play to clicks.
Bands don't have to record to a click.

But the do have to be on time.

PolarityMan

Danny1969 said:

As much as I like a click for editing purposes there are times when I feel I want the song to push and the drummer can't cos of the click. We draw tempo maps sometimes but it's not quite the same

I always find it ironic that drummers with superb feel don't actually need a click cos you don't need to edit them. They might well speed up a little but sometimes that's what the song calls for. I doubt the Zepplin stuff would have been improved by a rigid click and that's some of my all time favorite drumming

Note that I didn't actually mention recording to a click in my post. I said doing click work improves timing. Having said that while I agree that it can be appropriate for parts to be at different tempos I think for most durmmers the main advantage of recording to a click is that is is an impartial arbiter by which the culprit part can be identified.

Of course our drummer keeps claiming the click slows down :S

koneguitarist

Too often the drummer gets the blame for slowing or speeding the song etc, but quite often it's the guitarist who plays bass at fault.

Also make sure drummer has adequate monitor. We had a drummer back in early 80's, just before he joined us we was told, don't bother he's shit and can't keep time. We stuck a speaker behind him so he had something to play off, and he was fine, rock solid on the beat. 

Some drummers and bassists fight to be in charge some like to be led, work out what you have and you will be surprised how the dynamics can change with different personnel. I have been playing bass for over 30years, and some drummers couldn't swing on a rope let alone with the band. Yet I have seen some of those drummers with a different bassist and they are great.

ESBlonde

That fella Watts in those Rolling stones is recorded to have said he often can't hear what goes on but he follows Keef anyway. If he can't hear Keef he watches his foot and plays to that.

Seems to have worked for them over the years, who knows one day they might be big.

ICBM

ESBlonde said:

That fella Watts in those Rolling stones is recorded to have said he often can't hear what goes on but he follows Keef anyway. If he can't hear Keef he watches his foot and plays to that.

I have a strong suspicion he is being disingenuous, since he's one of the best steady drummers ever and the reason the Stones don't sound like a total shambles.

It's possible he does take a cue from Keef's foot but most of it is his own near-perfect sense of time.

octatonic

ICBM said:

ESBlonde said:

That fella Watts in those Rolling stones is recorded to have said he often can't hear what goes on but he follows Keef anyway. If he can't hear Keef he watches his foot and plays to that.

I have a strong suspicion he is being disingenuous, since he's one of the best steady drummers ever and the reason the Stones don't sound like a total shambles.

It's possible he does take a cue from Keef's foot but most of it is his own near-perfect sense of time.

I've heard many people say that Charlie is the only 'proper' musician out of all of them.

Not sure I necessarily agree but I can't believe he gets lost often- unless it is on the way to the shops.

He must be knocking on 80 now.

monquixote

The general skill level of drummers in (amateur) bands tends to be lower than the other musicians simply because decent drummers are thinner on the ground so bands tend to take what they can get. Lower skilled drummers who haven't played much in decent bands also get into the mistaken belief that because there are no chords to learn that any drum beat in the right time signature and tempo is sufficient when of course it's essential that the correct beats are emphasised. This leads them into the "never the same pattern" and "random fills" style of playing. Crap drummers also tend to speed up into rolls. 

Mid level drummers tend to realise this and start to develop consistent patterns so that people know where they are and the band sounds tight. 

High level drummers go back to to the situation where if they so chose and it's appropriate to the song that they can improvise as much as they want because they can essentially play any variant of a beat or fill provided that the correct dynamics, feel and accents are preserved. 

The same things are equally true of guitarists (even ones who are technically proficient). You will often hear pub band guitarists shredding away with no interest in how the notes fall against the beat and what that means for the sound of the band as a whole.

It's one reason why it's a worthwhile exercise to learn some funk music as the sparse nature and syncopation leaves nowhere to hide for musicians who don't think about rhythm. 

Teetonetal

@monquixote great post there. 100% agree