Any Motörbike riders here?

AK99

The risk of injury or death to spectators is the big problem. 

Having once seen a racing TZ350 slide down the road and then - after sliding for about 50 yards  - still have enough momentum after it hit a bank to get flipped over the top of the telegraph wires back in the 80s, you get a sense of how difficult it is to protect all of the spectators.

TBH much and all as I love the sport (my grandfather and his brothers were always involved), the need to move spectators further and further away from the action has rendered it pretty poor as a a viewing spectacle. The best place to watch the racing was either out on the track, or on TV.

I'll miss it though - a true part of the Ulster heritage which crossed all the tribal boundaries.

Dominic

very much a N Irish Family thing too......certain family dynasties like the Dunlops etc .....but they have lost many of their kin to the sport .

AK99

Yes indeed.

It's also noticeable - and nice -  how deep rooted the associations with motorbike-racing are up there. People still talk about the days Hailwood and Agostini used to thrash it out round Dundrod at 'The Ulster' (Grand Prix). Occasionally even you'll still hear one of the old fellas make a quip like 'G'wan Giacomo son' if they see or hear somebody on a bike or in a car travelling at a rate of knots

cruxiform

https://gofund.me/dcc92b5c

Donate and share. I have a trip booked to go over and see the Cookstown and Tandragee races, well I did. At least I still have the TT to go to in May. I'll just tour Ireland instead on the bike.

I agree with what Phillip McCallen said yesterday, maybe the punters should start paying to watch the racing, it's always been free. I wouldn't mind paying to watch if it helped secure funds to keep the racing going.

AK99

Yeah people should pay or contribute in some way. I know the prospect of paying to watch what was always free would be an anathema to many, but the fans would always have bought and given a little over the odds for race-programmes, badges, sponsorship nights and the like.

Found a nice bit of footage of the NW200 back in the day - 1958:

AK99

Or if you want to really see the roots of the Road Racing scene - old Pathé reel footage from the Ulster GP 100 years ago this year:

Dominic

Amazing .....the 1958 Northwest was a couple of years before I was born and the world looks sepia tinted .The bikes look antique and the helmets are virtually useless yet they were avareging 100mph lap times ...which means hitting 120 on the long straights ! Incredible 
- even today a perfectly competent road rider on a Fireblade or similar would have a hard job matching that 65 years and lightyears of engineering later.
Of course , a good rider (not a racer ) and a superbike would be hugely different .
Names like Mike Hailwood and Sammy Miller .......they were great riders ...........and ,of course, Agostini

AK99

You'll like this maybe  (perhaps my favourite racing pic of all time): Ray McCullough on skinny, treaded tyres (pre slick-days) at. Dundrod, sometime back in the 70s





The equipment has improved dramatically, but there's still always a heck of a difference between the quick men and the not-quite-so-quick ones

AK99

And one last one... Ray McCullough again, but with some young fella Dunlop trying to show him who's boss..

Dominic

AK99 said:

You'll like this maybe  (perhaps my favourite racing pic of all time): Ray McCullough on skinny, treaded tyres (pre slick-days) at. Dundrod, sometime back in the 70s





The equipment has improved dramatically, but there's still always a heck of a difference between the quick men and the not-quite-so-quick ones

No knee sliders needed in those days !
The knee-down technique of today has very little to do with the corner angle and agility .....it's all about the vast pick-up upon accelerating out of the corner and counterbalancing the potential hi-side as the back wheel spins and bites again
......a bit like trapezing out on a racing dinghy when a sail is fully billowed.
Fantastic photo

rsvmark

No knee sliders needed in those days !

The knee-down technique of today has very little to do with the corner angle and agility .....it's all about the vast pick-up upon accelerating out of the corner and counterbalancing the potential hi-side as the back wheel spins and bites again

Yes and no. Hanging off is about moving the centre of gravity so that the bike stays more upright, and therefore maintains a bigger contact patch, and maintains more grip. More grip equals more corner speed. At the apex you then pick up the bike and drive out. 

Often seen as a badge of honour by fuckwits where the bike is vertical and they hang off like gibbons going around your local roundabout, it’s used more as a gauge by faster riders as to far far over they are cranked. Kenny Roberts was often thought of as the first guy to pioneer this technique.  Look at top riders now, and really elbow down is the new knee down. This was pioneered by Marc Marquez in his early and invincible period. Even Rossi had to change his style as he couldn’t keep up.

Kittyfrisk

^  Your username wouldn't have anything to do with an Aprilia would it? 

Dominic

rsvmark said:

No knee sliders needed in those days !

The knee-down technique of today has very little to do with the corner angle and agility .....it's all about the vast pick-up upon accelerating out of the corner and counterbalancing the potential hi-side as the back wheel spins and bites again

Yes and no. Hanging off is about moving the centre of gravity so that the bike stays more upright, and therefore maintains a bigger contact patch, and maintains more grip. More grip equals more corner speed. At the apex you then pick up the bike and drive out. 

Often seen as a badge of honour by fuckwits where the bike is vertical and they hang off like gibbons going around your local roundabout, it’s used more as a gauge by faster riders as to far far over they are cranked. Kenny Roberts was often thought of as the first guy to pioneer this technique.  Look at top riders now, and really elbow down is the new knee down. This was pioneered by Marc Marquez in his early and invincible period. Even Rossi had to change his style as he couldn’t keep up.

Yes true to some extent........I can get my knee down on a bike just by moving so far over that the seat is in the crook of my knee but it's not doing anything for corner speed.
When I used to race ( badly ) I don 't think I ever really touched my knee down ....sometimes I would just graze the ground by a millimetre on a slow tight corner but more often than not it would be the footpegs getting shaved down before my knee

AK99

rsvmark said:

Often seen as a badge of honour by fuckwits where the bike is vertical and they hang off like gibbons going around your local roundabout, it’s used more as a gauge by faster riders as to far far over they are cranked. Kenny Roberts was often thought of as the first guy to pioneer this technique.  Look at top riders now, and really elbow down is the new knee down. This was pioneered by Marc Marquez in his early and invincible period. Even Rossi had to change his style as he couldn’t keep up.

Yeah it's amazing to watch. It started way before Marquez came along though - it was the French 250 rider chap Ruggia(?) who was the first to get his elbow down - way back at the end of the eighties would you believe. The photographers used to ask which corner he was going to do it at and stake it out to try to catch the moment. Nowadays the faster local racers and even the track-day bike instructors at Mondello have elbow-sliders on their leathers - though like the gibbons knee scratching, if you look you can see some (not all) are holding the end of the bar in their fingertips to give them the extra reach.



There's a few interesting vids on YouTube showing how the various approaches to leaning off have progressed and evolved over the years. Roberts started the whole knee down thing (at least according to his autobiography), but kept his head and shoulders largely centred on the bike, later riders like Freddie Spencer began to shift the torso much more to the inside, but kept his head centred, or even slightly to the opposite side of the centre line, while modern riders seem to focus on getting both the head and torso as far off the bike to the inside as is physically possible.

Have to say even with the little track riding I've done, I find just sliding your @rse across a little, but moving your head and shoulders low and to the inside so that you feel a bit like a side-car passenger hanging off makes the bike feel more stable and secure in a bend. Ironic really that separating yourself from the thing a little makes you feel much more in control of it. Still struggling to get my head round that one

Dominic

looking at the picture you can certainly see the way it lowers the centre of gravity
It's actually not that hard to do and you don't need loads of speed /gyroscopic force
......talking about Marquez......the bit I find much harder is being able to back the bike into a bend and ride that rear wheel drift
-he's a master of that . I've tried a bit but my balls shrivel up long before the back really starts to slide because you do need speed and G force ......at least enough for the momentum to override the split second where the rear wheel bites and stops sliding but without hi-siding you.I actually did it about a month ago unintentionally at fairly moderate speed by hitting some fucker's diesel spill......I was going about 50/60mph and was scared shitless for a few split seconds ......how somebody can do that at 100mph on purpose with a bike 3 inches in front and another 2 inches to the left is beyond me .It's like a high speed version of the standing up figure of 8 donut (which I can't do either .........I'll stick to a few 50m wheelies !

AK99

Try it on a dirt-bike on a loose surface - and preferably and one with a knackered rear tyre.

Very difficult to try to learn with grippy tyres on the road because the transition from grip to no grip and then back to grip when the tyre slows is so sudden - and with the kind of speeds / bike involved, the risks are kinda on the high side (no pun intended..). On a loose surface it's a lot easier to get the tyre sliding with relatively little power, and everything happens progressively and at a lot lower speed. It's pretty intuitive too - once the rear end starts to come round, your natural instinct is to steer into it, and with even a small amount of practice you can get fairly comfortable sliding and crossed up, honestly.

Myself, the brother and his young fellow used to go to one of the indoor eMX tracks in the North. 3 x 10 minute on / 10 minute rest sessions on KTM electric motoX bikes for not a huge amount of money - 30 euros ish a head. It's a flippin' hoot - great way to practice sliding a bike about (you have to steer them from the rear, or use the berms to turn anyway quickly) - let your inner hooligan loose and scare yourself witless

rsvmark

Kittyfrisk said:

^  Your username wouldn't have anything to do with an Aprilia would it? 

Yup. Gen 2, akras and remapped ecu. Slow by modern standards 

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2839/12697807184_a937a6b7b6_k_d.jpg

rsvmark

AK99 said:

rsvmark said:

Often seen as a badge of honour by fuckwits where the bike is vertical and they hang off like gibbons going around your local roundabout, it’s used more as a gauge by faster riders as to far far over they are cranked. Kenny Roberts was often thought of as the first guy to pioneer this technique.  Look at top riders now, and really elbow down is the new knee down. This was pioneered by Marc Marquez in his early and invincible period. Even Rossi had to change his style as he couldn’t keep up.

Yeah it's amazing to watch. It started way before Marquez came along though - it was the French 250 rider chap Ruggia(?) who was the first to get his elbow down - way back at the end of the eighties would you believe. The photographers used to ask which corner he was going to do it at and stake it out to try to catch the moment. Nowadays the faster local racers and even the track-day bike instructors at Mondello have elbow-sliders on their leathers - though like the gibbons knee scratching, if you look you can see some (not all) are holding the end of the bar in their fingertips to give them the extra reach.

There's a few interesting vids on YouTube showing how the various approaches to leaning off have progressed and evolved over the years. Roberts started the whole knee down thing (at least according to his autobiography), but kept his head and shoulders largely centred on the bike, later riders like Freddie Spencer began to shift the torso much more to the inside, but kept his head centred, or even slightly to the opposite side of the centre line, while modern riders seem to focus on getting both the head and torso as far off the bike to the inside as is physically possible.

Have to say even with the little track riding I've done, I find just sliding your @rse across a little, but moving your head and shoulders low and to the inside so that you feel a bit like a side-car passenger hanging off makes the bike feel more stable and secure in a bend. Ironic really that separating yourself from the thing a little makes you feel much more in control of it. Still struggling to get my head round that one

It’s interesting to compare the riding styles of the various world champs over the decades. A great example was Quick Mick - he looked like he was totally crossed up. His arse was well off whereas his head was much more central. The other rider that springs to mind was Jamie Whitham- led with his head in a totally different style. Saw a great photo montage a few years ago showing the evolution of Rossi’s body position over the years. I guess the bikes he started off with were the featherlight but brutal NSR then into MotoGP over the years with heavier but brutal torque monsters, sliding the rear, with the evolution of electrics and full on rider aids. Evolution of race bikes needed evolution of styles and skills.

Haych

Had my first real crash last week, fortunately I wasn't going very quick.  No damage to me and the crash bars on the bike took the brunt so no other damage on the bike, luckily.

This was the first of about four offs late last Tuesday afternoon, we were falling over like dominos.  One guy, who fell off twice, hurt himself quite badly, but didn't know until he got home a couple of days later and went to A&E, where he was diagnosed with four broken ribs and a broken ankle!

Anyway, have a larf at my expense.

Kittyfrisk

Glad you were OK. Bikes, even BM's don't do as well in such slippery stuff.
Guy behind you was observing well though