Pay To Play gigs

timmysoft · January 2016

It depends what you're in the band for. If you want to play music and be in a band there's nothing wrong with pay to play, if you enjoyed golf you'd pay to go on a golf course wouldn't you?

I did plenty of "buy on" tours, the gigs throughout the rest of the year paid for them. My biggest regret is that we were offered the chance to support The Scorpions out in Prague, in a 20,000 capacity stadium and it would have been 2000 euros, it would have been a great experience, well worth my share of the fee.

gingerbbm · January 2016

Never paid to play, although I have paid for a lot of beer and food waiting for the hours between first soundcheck and last set time. Gigged for a year or so in London and even here there just aren't the punters, not even in Camden. Part of it is market saturation - but I think it's good that people are making the effort to play and I can honestly say that most of the bands sharing bills with us were really polished acts. I didn't expect it and was pleasantly surprised. My beef is the tin-pot promoters who do nothing of the kind except repeatedly prompt the band members to get their friends along, pocket the money on the door and piss off long before the last band takes the stage. Perhaps they're the ones paying to put on a music night, I dunno.

digitalscream · January 2016

stickyfiddle said:
Reminds me of the "Surface Unsigned Festival" around the same time - nationwide battle of the bands with text voting and shit. As you'd expect the organisers were guaranteed a 50k profit before a single note was played, plus whatever they got for ticket sales (bands had to pay for 20 tickets for round 1, 50 for round 2, etc). Complete fucking joke.

That was a joke if you expected to get paid as much as the organisers - however, there were opportunities to make money. My band at the time made a profit on it - they also forced us to get more organised and start being more professional with regard to merch, recordings etc.

Once you got past the shitty first couple of rounds, it was actually a pretty good experience. We ended up crashing out at the regional finals at the O2 in Birmingham, which was worth the experience in itself.

stickyfiddle · January 2016

digitalscream said:

stickyfiddle said:
Reminds me of the "Surface Unsigned Festival" around the same time - nationwide battle of the bands with text voting and shit. As you'd expect the organisers were guaranteed a 50k profit before a single note was played, plus whatever they got for ticket sales (bands had to pay for 20 tickets for round 1, 50 for round 2, etc). Complete fucking joke.

That was a joke if you expected to get paid as much as the organisers - however, there were opportunities to make money. My band at the time made a profit on it - they also forced us to get more organised and start being more professional with regard to merch, recordings etc.

Once you got past the shitty first couple of rounds, it was actually a pretty good experience. We ended up crashing out at the regional finals at the O2 in Birmingham, which was worth the experience in itself.

Of course I wouldn't expect any band to make as much as the organisers, but the organisers weren't taking *any* of the risk, yet took all the profits. That's not how things should work. And I'm sure it was great for the guys who got to the final stages, but a lot of money and time down the drain for the 90% of schmucks who got kicked out in rounds 1+2

bobblehat · February 2016

lloyd said:

Deijavoo said:

Wisdom indeed.

This is something that pisses me off (not here, more on the other fb pages) a lot of gigs get advertised as no pay and the comments come flying in-comparing gigging to a plumber-you wouldn't expect a tradesman to work for "exposure" type shit. No you wouldn't, but then again fuck off. A better analogy IMO is comparing your band to a 5 a side football team, it's a hobby, it's fun it costs money etc but my office mates that play on a Monday evening don't try to sell tickets to watch them play and brand it as entertainment....people will pay to watch the premier league but not a kick about on the local park. Too often the differing standard of live music is comparable to PL footy and 5 a side shit. I think we as musicians get pissy as it's an art form, we spent ££££ and many hours to put a gig on but let's be real, it's fucking great fun. I've said many times here that if I didn't play in a band I'd rarely pick up my guitar, that's just the way I feel at the minute, I wish it was otherwise but there you go, and also if I never gigged again I would still meet up with my band every week to write, jam and have a good time. The gigs are fun yes, but they are a fucking tiny fraction of what being in a band is about (for me) if you're in it for the money, fame and blow jobs then 99.9999% of you will walk away dissatisfied.....those big bands that got lucky and "made it" would still be jamming with their pals and playing for fuck all in the dog and duck had they not had the fortune and talent to be in the right place at the right time.

Some good points there Lloyd.

For the last 4-5 years most most of the gigs my band has done have either been free or for a small fee to cover petrol and a few beers. We all work full time but get together every week to jam because we love it. If someone is a genuine full time professional musician then they have every right to be angry and frustrated at landlords and promoters taking the piss with pay to play gigs or poor paying gigs. However if like a large percentage of coverband musicians they spend most of their time sat on their arses watching Jeremy Kyle and topping up their benefits with a few gigs then I have very little sympathy.

littlethoughts · February 2016

lloyd said:

Deijavoo said:

Wisdom indeed.

This is something that pisses me off (not here, more on the other fb pages) a lot of gigs get advertised as no pay and the comments come flying in-comparing gigging to a plumber-you wouldn't expect a tradesman to work for "exposure" type shit. No you wouldn't, but then again fuck off. A better analogy IMO is comparing your band to a 5 a side football team, it's a hobby, it's fun it costs money etc but my office mates that play on a Monday evening don't try to sell tickets to watch them play and brand it as entertainment....people will pay to watch the premier league but not a kick about on the local park. Too often the differing standard of live music is comparable to PL footy and 5 a side shit. I think we as musicians get pissy as it's an art form, we spent ££££ and many hours to put a gig on but let's be real, it's fucking great fun. I've said many times here that if I didn't play in a band I'd rarely pick up my guitar, that's just the way I feel at the minute, I wish it was otherwise but there you go, and also if I never gigged again I would still meet up with my band every week to write, jam and have a good time. The gigs are fun yes, but they are a fucking tiny fraction of what being in a band is about (for me) if you're in it for the money, fame and blow jobs then 99.9999% of you will walk away dissatisfied.....those big bands that got lucky and "made it" would still be jamming with their pals and playing for fuck all in the dog and duck had they not had the fortune and talent to be in the right place at the right time.

Mostly agree, except that when you play five aside football there isn't a venue owner charging lots of punters to watch, getting drinks etc. (when they certainly wouldn't normally pop down to the shithole 5-aside pitch to have a round of cocktails for the "ambience" if there wasn't a match on), all the while making sure the 5-aside players have to bring the goals, floodlights and corner flags themselves, and if a pitch invader runs on and steals the football then the venue certainly won't cover their losses. It is a good analogy though

stickyfiddle · February 2016

You also don't need 5k+ of equipment to play 5-a-side football...

UnclePsychosis · February 2016

thomasross20;918509" said:
Is there any sort of legal requirement for venues to pay bands, say, a third of takings?

Sorry, I had to lol that. It would be absolutely magnificent if it were

UnclePsychosis · February 2016

Here's an interesting piece by an Edinburgh based promoter / record label about many of the reasons bands and promoters don't get on:

http://songbytoad.com/2011/07/a-few-reasons-promoters-and-bands-dont-get-along/

The guy that wrote it is one of the good guys and makes some excellent points from both points of view.

digitalscream · February 2016

stickyfiddle said:

digitalscream said:

stickyfiddle said:
Reminds me of the "Surface Unsigned Festival" around the same time - nationwide battle of the bands with text voting and shit. As you'd expect the organisers were guaranteed a 50k profit before a single note was played, plus whatever they got for ticket sales (bands had to pay for 20 tickets for round 1, 50 for round 2, etc). Complete fucking joke.

That was a joke if you expected to get paid as much as the organisers - however, there were opportunities to make money. My band at the time made a profit on it - they also forced us to get more organised and start being more professional with regard to merch, recordings etc.

Once you got past the shitty first couple of rounds, it was actually a pretty good experience. We ended up crashing out at the regional finals at the O2 in Birmingham, which was worth the experience in itself.

Of course I wouldn't expect any band to make as much as the organisers, but the organisers weren't taking *any* of the risk, yet took all the profits. That's not how things should work. And I'm sure it was great for the guys who got to the final stages, but a lot of money and time down the drain for the 90% of schmucks who got kicked out in rounds 1+2

Actually, having read this again...there was no requirement to pay for tickets. There was a £50 entry fee for the first round, which was refunded if you sold 20 tickets. After that, the tickets were freely given to the bands, and they could sell them for however much they wanted if they wanted to make a profit off it (we didn't, but we sold packages of t-shirts and bus tickets etc with them).

Most of the money was actually made through the SMS voting up to the regional finals (no SMS votes there) - £1 per vote, and most bands were cheerfully joining in by buying votes that way. By my estimation, in our second round show there were about 70 tickets sold (£350), but over £2,000 was spent on text votes.

randomhandclaps · February 2016

stickyfiddle said:

You also don't need 5k+ of equipment to play 5-a-side football...

Nah, that depends. See you see some really good footballers turn up to play in cheap trainers and a vest whereas you see others with the ball skills of a one legged duck who have spent out on overpriced boots and other kit hoping it'll make up for their lack of skill or hard work.

Dominic · February 2016

My last band fell apart because I wanted to play,jam and explore our own original music as well as gig as often as possible irrespective of what a venue would pay ...................ie ;for the love of playing but other members wanted to gig only and didn't want to do any gigs that were not reasonably paid .......................the majority were happy to play the birdy song whilst squeezed into the tiniest of corners in a shitty boozer so long as they were getting decent pay ...................that sort of destroys the whole point for me

Interestingly when getting out looking for gigs we found a number of decent pubs,clubs and bars actually expected us to pay them !

It became apparent that they had been monopolised by so called "promoters " who did all their entertainment arrangements as agents and these people could find emerging edgy young bands looking to break through who would literally pay for the privilege .......what we also found was that we could get TUESDAY and WEDNESDAY nights but not weekends because " We always get a better take when we have a DJ/ mc at weekends "..............the crowds prefer it to live music " !

lloyd · February 2016

stickyfiddle said: You also don't need 5k+ of equipment to play 5-a-side football... I get where you're coming from but you don't need 5k+ of equipment to play in a band either to be fair....You could do it with a squier and a second hand amp for less than £300...Golf might be a better analogy?

lloyd · February 2016

littlethoughts said:

lloyd said:

Deijavoo said:

Wisdom indeed.

This is something that pisses me off (not here, more on the other fb pages) a lot of gigs get advertised as no pay and the comments come flying in-comparing gigging to a plumber-you wouldn't expect a tradesman to work for "exposure" type shit. No you wouldn't, but then again fuck off. A better analogy IMO is comparing your band to a 5 a side football team, it's a hobby, it's fun it costs money etc but my office mates that play on a Monday evening don't try to sell tickets to watch them play and brand it as entertainment....people will pay to watch the premier league but not a kick about on the local park. Too often the differing standard of live music is comparable to PL footy and 5 a side shit. I think we as musicians get pissy as it's an art form, we spent ££££ and many hours to put a gig on but let's be real, it's fucking great fun. I've said many times here that if I didn't play in a band I'd rarely pick up my guitar, that's just the way I feel at the minute, I wish it was otherwise but there you go, and also if I never gigged again I would still meet up with my band every week to write, jam and have a good time. The gigs are fun yes, but they are a fucking tiny fraction of what being in a band is about (for me) if you're in it for the money, fame and blow jobs then 99.9999% of you will walk away dissatisfied.....those big bands that got lucky and "made it" would still be jamming with their pals and playing for fuck all in the dog and duck had they not had the fortune and talent to be in the right place at the right time.

Mostly agree, except that when you play five aside football there isn't a venue owner charging lots of punters to watch, getting drinks etc. (when they certainly wouldn't normally pop down to the shithole 5-aside pitch to have a round of cocktails for the "ambience" if there wasn't a match on), all the while making sure the 5-aside players have to bring the goals, floodlights and corner flags themselves, and if a pitch invader runs on and steals the football then the venue certainly won't cover their losses. It is a good analogy though

I get that but I've played a lot of small originals gigs where as soon as the first band fires up customers walk out. Not always our band either

I've seen it happen to some very very talented bands. Some people hear the loud music and it's not their thing...

There's just not the demand out there these days. Venues get a lot of shit for not paying bands or getting them to sell tickets personally I've never come across one venue that insists on a minimum amount of tickets sold (one promoter required x amount in an email and I told him to fuck off....It was a doable amount but no way would I have done it for him).

Toilet venues are closing up and down the country and people want a slice of the profits off the bar simply because they feel entitled to it. I would assume that the originals showcase type affairs where they put 4 originals bands on mid-week typically lose them custom and the ticket price that the band get's a small cut of outweighs it.

There's a load of Facebooker's kicking off now with all the usual "you wouldn't expect a plumber to do it for free" comments....These usually come from someone who has a full time job and in an originals band with 800 likes on FB....Makes me laugh, there are plenty of opportunities for small bands to make their mark on the music scene and guaranteed if you made your mark you would be able to charge and you would get paid.

gusman2x · February 2016

Don't mind not getting paid. Really grudge having to sell tickets. This is what a promoter should be doing. Getting paid, and pay to play are quite different.

lloyd · February 2016

gusman2x said:

Don't mind not getting paid. Really grudge having to sell tickets. This is what a promoter should be doing. Getting paid, and pay to play are quite different.

That's the key bit in bold though, bands should be trying to sell tickets and promoting the night independently. the second there's a minimum ticket sales required followed by the band making up any shortfall is when the problems appear.

The real issue is that no one (very few people) wants to watch small unsigned original bands.....

The link @UnclePsychosis gave is a depressing but accurate state of affairs

gusman2x · February 2016

lloyd said:

gusman2x said:

Don't mind not getting paid. Really grudge having to sell tickets. This is what a promoter should be doing. Getting paid, and pay to play are quite different.

That's the key bit in bold though, bands should be trying to sell tickets and promoting the night independently. the second there's a minimum ticket sales required followed by the band making up any shortfall is when the problems appear.

The real issue is that no one (very few people) wants to watch small unsigned original bands.....

The link @UnclePsychosis gave is a depressing but accurate state of affairs

And also to be fair, it's difficult for bands to sell tickets to different people. Every 4 pc can sell 25 tickets to family and friends for the first couple of gigs. After that you can't really ask the same people to keep coming. This is where you're hoping a promoter can get more people along to gain you more exposure, and get you more fans.

DLM · February 2016

Wis'd Uncle, Lol'd Tigger.

stickyfiddle · February 2016

lloyd said:

stickyfiddle said:

You also don't need 5k+ of equipment to play 5-a-side football...

I get where you're coming from but you don't need 5k+ of equipment to play in a band either to be fair....You could do it with a squier and a second hand amp for less than £300...Golf might be a better analogy?

I do agree with the Squier thing, but for your average 4-piece you still need a drum kit and a bass as well, as a minimum, and potentially another guitar+amp. Obviously it can be done for well under 5k, but where you could kit an entire 5-a-side football team with cheap-ish kit for 500 quid, that's 1 person's worth of gigging equipment - Squier Strat, second hand VC30 or something, some reliable cables and a pedal of 2.

lloyd · February 2016

gusman2x said:

lloyd said:

gusman2x said:

Don't mind not getting paid. Really grudge having to sell tickets. This is what a promoter should be doing. Getting paid, and pay to play are quite different.

That's the key bit in bold though, bands should be trying to sell tickets and promoting the night independently. the second there's a minimum ticket sales required followed by the band making up any shortfall is when the problems appear.

The real issue is that no one (very few people) wants to watch small unsigned original bands.....

The link @UnclePsychosis gave is a depressing but accurate state of affairs

And also to be fair, it's difficult for bands to sell tickets to different people. Every 4 pc can sell 25 tickets to family and friends for the first couple of gigs. After that you can't really ask the same people to keep coming. This is where you're hoping a promoter can get more people along to gain you more exposure, and get you more fans.

Yeah I get that but how would you as a promoter go about doing that? Genuine question?

The biggest problem is that people just expect a promoter to be able to promote a night of unsigned small bands-which in all honesty there's very little to promote to start with and secondly it's not a product that many people want to go see unfortunately.

You can flyer the death out of Manchester and not get one bite, same with advertising on local radio stations and putting up gig listings-it's pointless where there isn't a demand for them kind of nights, ask people to punt a few quid on it and forget it. You may well get a few walk ins or people staying and paying the fee but not many.

How many people these days will go to the local muso bar and pay the door fee to watch unsigned bands? Not many.

I take my hat off to good promoters, but in all honesty I've only met two that are actually pretty professional about it.

That's really why we're doing our own thing now as it's a free night in a pub with a decent footfall and known as a muso place. You get a decent amount of people from all the bands, a few regulars and then a few walk ins. We've sold CD's off the back of it and we have had people come back to watch us there and other places which is great.

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