Pay To Play gigs

gusman2x

I think that it doesn't help that we're in Manchester. There's too much choice, and people can be blasé/cool as fuck about it all. We played with a really cool band from London in Levenshulme the other week. No one there. They had played in a working men's in Halifax the night before to over 100 people.

But if you say you've only come across 2 promoters that are half way serious about it, then that's a significant problem in itself.

lloyd

gusman2x said:

I think that it doesn't help that we're in Manchester. There's too much choice, and people can be blasé/cool as fuck about it all. We played with a really cool band from London in Levenshulme the other week. No one there. They had played in a working men's in Halifax the night before to over 100 people.

But if you say you've only come across 2 promoters that are half way serious about it, then that's a significant problem in itself.

Yeah you could well be right, last year we played with a French band: le skeleton band, they were phenomenal, no one there to see them, which is a huge shame.

Might be worth looking a bit further afield to the sticks as there's less going on?

The promoter thing is totally true-I've stopped bothering, they literally set up a Facebook, cut and paste your bio into it, get you to sell tickets for £6 and you keep a quid of the sale.....I've played gigs where literally every person in there is a mate of one of the bands.

Get 4 bands in selling 25 tickets each and that's £500 to the 'promoter' it's fucking pointless and I've not gone back with them, now I've ran out of promoters to work with....

carlos

Root problems are:

1 - £5 door price is ludicrous for what's involved. Barely more than a pint (in London, that is), less than a cinema ticket, same as an HD movie rental for 24 hours. Those kinds of door prices would be laughed at by other performance arts like dance (contemporary or classic), theatre, musical theatre, stand-up, etc. When they are at that price point is because they're being subsidised through lottery funding or other routes.

2 - Demand for relatively unknown live music is really low compared to all the other entertainment options. I like live music and I probably play more shows than I go to! If I ask around work colleagues and non-muso friends I expect them to haven't seen a new act live at at any point in the last 2, 3 years.

digitalscream

carlos said:

2 - Demand for relatively unknown live music is really low compared to all the other entertainment options. I like live music and I probably play more shows than I go to! If I ask around work colleagues and non-muso friends I expect them to haven't seen a new act live at at any point in the last 2, 3 years.

2a - Most music by unsigned artists is shit, derivative or both. It's the elephant in the room. Everybody goes on about how the music scene is dying, but the fact is that the signal:noise ratio is has dropped off a cliff since the advent of easy and cheap recording.

2b - Demand for live music in general is really low compared to a couple of decades ago; with the ability to carry around your entire collection wherever you are, or even stream from wherever you are, the need to see stuff live is dramatically reduced.

2c - Music is something that goes on in the background for the vast majority of teens and 20-somethings these days, rather than something that's actively focused on. Going to a show where you're forced to focus all your attention on music (due to the volume) is in direct opposition to that, and so they don't like it. Out of 15 or so of my daughter's friends at uni, only three had ever been to a live gig; that's very telling.

gingerbbm

In a nutshell, the culture has changed.

Moe_Zambeek

Digitalscream's point 2a is the answer IMO. The only way to make it happen and draw crowds is to be a really really good band, putting on a really really good show. 

Most bands are not, and do not. 

How many live gigs with underground / unsigned acts have you been to where the band did anything at all other than stand there and stare at their feet / guitar necks / back wall? I watched a band last weekend and the bass player spent the whole gig hiding in the corner, facing the drummer  

If you *are* really good, you do still need an outlet to get started, but the good people find them. 

In Edinburgh, there are still gigs where you don't need to pay to play. The much-maligned Whistle Binkies is one. I have maligned it myself in the past but...but...good bands draw repeat punters there. That's a basis to work from that costs the band nothing at worst, and is a marginal earner at best. 

 

carlos

Moe_Zambeek said:

Digitalscream's point 2a is the answer IMO. The only way to make it happen and draw crowds is to be a really really good band, putting on a really really good show. 

Most bands are not, and do not.  

As good or as bad as it's ever been probably. 20 or so years of going to shows and the hits and misses seem consistent as far as I'm concerned. Agree with all of digitalscream's points, though.

digitalscream

Funnily enough, though...when I posted a request for a band at a couple of weeks' notice to play at a great little venue which draws crowds all by itself and refuses to do pay-to-play (and would be a great foot-in-the-door gig, since a lot of the venues in Luton now work together), there was only one semi-positive response. I can't believe that it's all down to the original bands on here all being booked that weekend.

It's not just laziness on the punters' side

lloyd

All good points being raised. Thing is if you put on a club/dance night in Manchester you will get a big turnout for it with much the same amount of effort as you would and get nothing at a guitar music night...demand is low for all the reasons stated above.

lloyd

stickyfiddle said:

lloyd said:

stickyfiddle said:

You also don't need 5k+ of equipment to play 5-a-side football...

I get where you're coming from but you don't need 5k+ of equipment to play in a band either to be fair....You could do it with a squier and a second hand amp for less than £300...Golf might be a better analogy?

I do agree with the Squier thing, but for your average 4-piece you still need a drum kit and a bass as well, as a minimum, and potentially another guitar+amp. Obviously it can be done for well under 5k, but where you could kit an entire 5-a-side football team with cheap-ish kit for 500 quid, that's 1 person's worth of gigging equipment - Squier Strat, second hand VC30 or something, some reliable cables and a pedal of 2.
Aye fair enough but I'm not sure spending money on something entitles you to any money-most people start to play an instrument due to a love of music not to earn money out of playing it

bobblehat

If you were the owner of a city centre bar/venue would you have unsigned bands playing original music?

Your unlikely to want to put them on Thursday/Friday or Saturday.You'd want a decent cover band to attract or keep the drinkers there. 

So Monday -Wednesday it is. At best you may get an extra 10-15 of their mates turn up to support them and most likely not drinking much as its a work night. You are also just as likely to lose customers who are out for a quiet mid week pint. The reality is most unsigned originals bands are rubbish. As a musician I we always see the good in bands as we have an appreciation for the hard work involved but your average punter really couldn't give a shit .     

lloyd

bobblehat said:

If you were the owner of a city centre bar/venue would you have unsigned bands playing original music?

Your unlikely to want to put them on Thursday/Friday or Saturday.You'd want a decent cover band to attract or keep the drinkers there. 

So Monday -Wednesday it is. At best you may get an extra 10-15 of their mates turn up to support them and most likely not drinking much as its a work night. You are also just as likely to lose customers who are out for a quiet mid week pint. The reality is most unsigned originals bands are rubbish. As a musician I we always see the good in bands as we have an appreciation for the hard work involved but your average punter really couldn't give a shit .     

Interesting point(s) for me as I am looking to open a city centre bar in the next year or so. There is no way I would even consider making it a muso's bar....I wouldn't even have an open mic. I wouldn't have originals bands there full stop (I would allow the Rolling Stones do a gig ) I would consider putting an acoustic act on mid-week, possibly....

Like you say there's no appetite for it. Especially mid-week, like I say, you see people walk out during sound checks nevermind the first song.

I'm not sure where I stand on most originals bands being rubbish...I have seen a load of shit bands to be fair, but since doing our own night we have only had really good bands on, I've been blown away by one or two of them, there is talent out there but maybe you need to search through a lot of shit to find gold?

That's something I want to happen with our monthly night-be known for having good bands on, not just any old shite to make up the numbers. I think with time you could build up a good reputation as a promoter/night but it's not easy.

gingerbbm

It depends on what clientele you're hoping to attract. There are people out there who want to see new live music, and there are those who want to see old live music (covers), and there are those who want a jukebox, and those who want a DJ, those who want chart shite in the background, etc.

To a certain extent I think it's a conflict between art and entertainment.

lloyd

gingerbbm said:

It depends on what clientele you're hoping to attract. There are people out there who want to see new live music, and there are those who want to see old live music (covers), and there are those who want a jukebox, and those who want a DJ, those who want chart shite in the background, etc.

To a certain extent I think it's a conflict between art and entertainment.

The issue is that there are a lot more people who don't want live music than those that do. To set up a live music venue in Manchester city centre would be commercial suicide, the Roadhouse-a fixture of the live music scene for years here closed down last year.

There is just not a market for it unfortunately.

You could set up a venue that booked bigger acts and that would do ok (I don't know the finances of that) as N&D manage to stay open, but I would imagine that the small originals band nights they put on cost them money.

gingerbbm

lloyd said:

There is just not a market for it unfortunately.

Yep. As I said up there somewhere, the culture has changed.

lloyd

gingerbbm said:

lloyd said:

There is just not a market for it unfortunately.

Yep. As I said up there somewhere, the culture has changed.

The truest thing said in here is that people have instant access to music 24/7 should they choose for free (they'd have the phone, internet etc anyway) people who like music can pay £10 a month for Spotify premium....That's peanuts for basically all the recorded music in the world in your hand instantly.

100 years ago you would have had to get out and listen to music being performed, perform it yourself or not have music....

50 years ago you would have had to buy the records, go watch a band or put money into a juke box.