Training a puppy is hard work, eh?

digitalscream

Sarge said:

Rox;921638" said:

This is the complete opposite of what you should do.  Cesar Millan uses outdated and flawed techniques that can seriously make things much, much worse.

Sorry, I'm not up to date with the latest hipster training trends, whats the fashion today?

It's not fashion - most of what CM comes out with is total rubbish. He uses the justification that you should treat dogs like wolves - the problem with that is that looking to wolves to work out dogs' social behaviour is like looking to chimps to work out humans' social behaviour. With that said, his understanding of wolf pack behaviour and social structure is limited to what he's read in pop-fiction...actual dominance displays are incredibly rare, because they're not necessary.

Basically, his approach is confrontational and antagonistic - it makes the assumption that the dogs know nothing of cooperation and only respond to more forceful displays from another. This essentially flies in the face of just about everything that science and (actual qualified) animal behaviourists know. In fact, his methods are considered to be no more than a quick fix (great for TV, but science has shown it to largely result in more aggression later on).

It's not that he's a bad guy - he just doesn't really know what he's talking about most of the time, owing mostly to his "self-taught guy from the gutter" rags-to-riches story.

Some of his stuff does genuinely work, but generally only with dogs with serious behavioural issues (which can mostly be sorted other ways more effectively) and even then only sometimes. Trying to apply his methods to a dog who's doing their best and doesn't have any real issues is often setting yourself up for worse problems down the line.

octatonic

Richardj said:

octatonic said:

Richardj said:

Don't want to be a misery, but peanuts are potentially poisonous to dogs, might want to be a little careful there.

Our Dogue de Bordeaux seemed to take an eternity to train to tell us she wanted to go out, but once sorted she was as good as gold.

Totally spoiled by our Newfoundland as he pretty much sorted himself out within three to four months.  We have used large crates/cages for all of our dogs and it has worked well as they have their own safe zone to rest etc.

Now you have to provide pics.

I love the big dogs- they are amazing.

This is Dotty, we got her through Battersea Dogs Home as an eight week old puppy with the potential for a lot of poor breeding problems in the future. We got her through and sorted a lot of things before losing her when she was only eight.

This is Bear, or Mr Boo, or more often Boo Boo, with one of my friends children. He's now nearly five and in all honesty you couldn't want a better family dog. Loyal, guarding, doesn't steal. Best thing about Newfoundlands is that they don't suffer from the usual big dog joint issues (as long as you look after them properly as they are growing up) so we have a sixty plus kilo dog who can walk for hours, run, jump and be happy and healthy.  A bit slobbery, but there is a price for everything!

Do be aware that every one you have and lose will leave a hole in your heart that never really mends.

Wonderful dogs.

I'd love a Newfoundland or a Neo Mastiff next.

Mrs Oct wants another bully.

joneve

As promised - some photos of Poppy since bringing her home;

Absolute life of riley. Sleeps all the time, like most puppies - wakes up to pee and cause mischief for an hour, then goes back to sleep. Her favourite thing at the minute is running up the stairs and then wondering WTF to do next as she can't get herself down! Getting a stair gate tomorrow  

Luckily she likes her crate already. Bloody loves her I do. 

Moss

I just melted from the pure cuteness on display here 

underdog

Rox;921638" said:

Sarge said:

OP, is this your first pooch?

I recommend watching Cesare Milan the dog whisperer, thats a guy who knows his onions, and dogs!










This is the complete opposite of what you should do.  Cesar Millan uses outdated and flawed techniques that can seriously make things much, much worse.

Wisdom.

It was nice not being the one to say it for once

joneve

Moss said:

I just melted from the pure cuteness on display here 

She's ace, isn't she?

randomhandclaps

Richardj said:

Beautiful.  Dogue De Bordeaux are a real touchy subject in our house as they are pretty close to my favourite dog ever but my Mrs says they are 'too big and scary looking' as although I've spent my life around dogs, it's all fairly new to her.  This is despite me training and DDB and Boerboel  (South African mastiff) for my cousin and both being two of the best dogs that you could ever meet. 

randomhandclaps

Training debate aside my issue with Cesar Milan and any other TV wonder trainer is exactly the same one I have with Super Nanny Jo Frost.  Namely that they turn up in the middle of disorder and appear to easily work instant miracles.  All this negates telling the viewer the blunt truth that when you arrive in a pack or family lacking leadership and act strongly the very first thing kids and dogs think is "Who the fuck is this?  Mum & Dad seem a little bit intimidated so I better feel my way around carefully in case I end up being cast out.".  It's exactly the same as grownups do when we have a new boss.

EricTheWeary

I've watched a couple of Cesar things and they seemed pretty straightforward - your dog is tearing the house apart because he is bored type stuff. I know some people have criticised him for being cruel at times although nothing I'd seen. My sister in law bought a couple of his books when they had a difficult rescue staffie ( basically a dog abandoned by another relative rather than the dog of their choice) and it made zero impact. Wether that was the training ideas or their lack of application I don't know. I think, similarly to RHC, that Cesar and the super nannies,etc, fail to take into account their own personalities and charisma and just turn what they do into a series of exercises which then don't work .

Rox

@sarge - I've worked with rescue dogs and dogs with behavioural issues for 16 years.

@digitalscream has made a good number of points... I don't need to repeat those.  Further to his points, if dogs were always vying for 'pack position', there would be more fights and more problems.  Usually the dogs that have the issues are the ones without confidence.  It's easy to bully those dogs because they are already terrified.

Millan uses shock collars and prong collars - they have no place in ANY dog training under ANY circumstances.  If you're willing to bully a dog into submission, you have no business "training" a dog.

As @digitalscream says - dominance theory is outdated and wrong.  It was based on a study of an artificial wolf pack in the 1940's.  The problems are twofold (1) Dogs aren't wolves and (2) wolf packs are stable - they are not created artificially.

Throwing a load of unfamiliar wolves together and drawing conclusions from their behaviour is like saying Big Brother is a serious anthropological study.

So, as dogs aren't wolves, why do we believe those who use a flawed study into wolves when it comes to dog behaviour?  It's nonsense.

A Chihuahua and a St. Bernard are more closely related to each other than a wolf and a dog - but we don't threat those breeds the same.  A German Shepherd and a Spaniel are very different and think of the world in a different way - so you train them both differently... but there's something even more important than that...

Every dog is unique.  If I had a dog called Jake, they are Jake first, the breed second, and a dog third.  The most important thing about Jake is that he's Jake.  And that's where these "trainers" make their biggest mistake.  In the case of Millan, he puts the emphasis on them being a "wolf" first.

It's not 'hipster', it's common sense and experience working with dogs.  If you have a real problem with a dog - and we've worked with dogs who loathe humans - you can turn them around but it takes time and patience.  And using dominance techniques will make things much much worse.  Time and patience are things you don't have on a TV show where you need to look like a miracle worker.

I've seen clips of his show where he's pinning down a clearly terrified dog - but he's telling people this dog is aggressive or trying to be the pack leader.  If you know what you're looking for, you can see his description of the problem and what is actually happening are often two different things.

They don't show the time a GSD attacked his owner because Millan was using a shock collar, for example.

To truly work through problems with a dog, they need to trust you and like you.  Anyone can bully a dog for a short term shock effect.  And with editing out what they don't want you to see on TV, it can look good.  You have no idea what order everything is filmed in either.

On one show (not his) they showed a dog who had successfully overcome his obsession with eating the post when it arrived.  However, all the work had been done by the owners before the TV behaviourist arrived (the wonders of TV), so they filmed the segment with the behaviourist going through the advice they would have given (as thought they were solving it) and filmed the dog not eating the post.  Then, to round off the filming, they encouraged the dog to eat some post for the cameras - as a "before" shot, and buggered off.  When edited together, it looked like this TV person had miraculously solved the problem in one visit, when actually the people found themselves back to square one - because the dog was obsessed with eating the post again.

As another quick example - some of these people use 'air sprays' to 'correct' a dog.  We've seen dogs that because of these techniques, become terrified of air fresheners (or spray polish - or any spray at all) - and then those automatic air fresheners are randomly going off, and that sound is telling the dog off for whatever they're doing.  You end up with a dog who is terrified of everything.

When you work with animals for weeks,  months and sometimes years to get them right these programmes really do huge amounts of damage.

Hipster, indeed.

Sarge

Fwiw, I wasn't referring to CM's techniques for dealing with aggression issues or hardcore behavioural problems as I've no real experience with dogs with these issues, we we're talking about a pup and I tried a few CM methods with my pup namely walking to heel, shushing the dog when the doorbell rings and things like entering/leaving the house before the dog, almost all of them worked a treat with my collie who at 7 year old is a beautifully serene and responsive, well adjusted loving dog, these simple techniques are old as the hills and you'll know this i assume.
I bow to your greater experience and acknowledge my lesser, but I'd use these tricks again, as they worked for me and my dog.

Rox

@sarge - When we work with a collie, instead of shushing them, we show them what they can do, rather than telling them what they can't do.

The reason I responded so thoroughly to your post was your 'hipster' dig.  Rather than enquire further, you thought you'd belittle the advice.

You may be using some of his kinder methods, but recommending his approach when he uses shock collars, prong collars, pinning, 'alpha' and 'dominance' techniques is a dangerous thing to do - so I thought I'd explain it fully so people can decide based on the differing techniques.  And while there are gentle and more effective techniques there's no need for him at all.

Sarge

Fair play.

Jalapeno

joneve said:

As promised - some photos of Poppy since bringing her home;

Absolute life of riley. Sleeps all the time, like most puppies - wakes up to pee and cause mischief for an hour, then goes back to sleep. Her favourite thing at the minute is running up the stairs and then wondering WTF to do next as she can't get herself down! Getting a stair gate tomorrow  

Luckily she likes her crate already. Bloody loves her I do. 

Springer Spaniel ?    Prepare for 2 years of loony dog !

joneve

Jalapeno said:

joneve said:

As promised - some photos of Poppy since bringing her home;

Absolute life of riley. Sleeps all the time, like most puppies - wakes up to pee and cause mischief for an hour, then goes back to sleep. Her favourite thing at the minute is running up the stairs and then wondering WTF to do next as she can't get herself down! Getting a stair gate tomorrow  

Luckily she likes her crate already. Bloody loves her I do. 

Springer Spaniel ?    Prepare for 2 years of loony dog !

Two?? HID's family springer was a fucking loon til the day he went off to doggy heaven :-|

Axe_meister

Another one of Violet (or Violent when she gets a bit bitey)

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Axe_meister/IMAG0051_zpsdqiu9ggz.jpg

However Toilet training is becoming a pain.

She drinks gallons, ignores her puppy mats, pisses everywhere she can (especially her bed and toys).

She even pisses and poops whilst she is playing. Ahhhrrrrgggg.

Otherwise her and Hugo now get along and play well although he can still be grumpy at times.

joneve

Axe_meister said:

Another one of Violet (or Violent when she gets a bit bitey)

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Axe_meister/IMAG0051_zpsdqiu9ggz.jpg

However Toilet training is becoming a pain.

She drinks gallons, ignores her puppy mats, pisses everywhere she can (especially her bed and toys).

She even pisses and poops whilst she is playing. Ahhhrrrrgggg.

Otherwise her and Hugo now get along and play well although he can still be grumpy at times.

OMFG! She's (nearly ) as cute as poppy!

Glad someone else is having toilet training woes. Poppy is getting better - she more often than not tends to shit by the front door now, where we've put newspaper. Doesn't care for the puppy pads we bought (anyone need a box of 100, hardly any used -_____-)...but we take her in the garden whenever we get home from work/being out and she'll wee in the garden.

Still have the odd accident where she'll wee on the carpet, but when she needs a big wee, she'll either do it on newspaper or scratch at the backdoor to go out. 

She's also already sitting and coming on command....pretty pleased for only a week or so being at home! 

underdog

Best tip I can give to anyone with an energetic puppy is to teach them to walk nicely as soon as possible. Even before they can go out and walk on the lead outside, in the house teach them that walking next to you is the best place in the world, because by a year old they will drag you down the street every walk

Axe_meister

underdog said:

Best tip I can give to anyone with an energetic puppy is to teach them to walk nicely as soon as possible. Even before they can go out and walk on the lead outside, in the house teach them that walking next to you is the best place in the world, because by a year old they will drag you down the street every walk

Pup is practically glued to my side anyway.

Why is it that the back door is open, the sun is out, the ground is dry and the puppy goes up to the door and pisses inside.

You stand outside with the pup for an hour, nothing.

The second you come inside, she pisses right in front of you.

underdog

Axe_meister;930566" said:

underdog said:

Best tip I can give to anyone with an energetic puppy is to teach them to walk nicely as soon as possible. Even before they can go out and walk on the lead outside, in the house teach them that walking next to you is the best place in the world, because by a year old they will drag you down the street every walk





Pup is practically glued to my side anyway.

Why is it that the back door is open, the sun is out, the ground is dry and the puppy goes up to the door and pisses inside.You stand outside with the pup for an hour, nothing.The second you come inside, she pisses right in front of you.

Get her walking on a lead around the house or garden by your side, using treats to keep her there as you walk and use your chosen "command" heal/here or whatever. It will be worth it as when you get her out in the big wide world everything is way more interesting than you, she can see you in the house