How do people enjoy this??? Am I getting old?

hugbot

There are good clubs and shit ones. The sound system should have plenty of thunk but not be distorting, and ideally there should be a chillout area that isn't as loud.

Heartfeltdawn

Drew_fx said:

I don't think that's true at all.

Teenage rebellion is more about rebelling from their peers. The previous generation is largely irrelevant.

Exactly and this is what is being seen online: the Corbynites supporting an older form of socialism, the young libertarians, the UKIP fraternity, the boost to the Green Party in the last few years... they're taking standpoints coming from an older generation and mainly reacting against their own peer groups. 

octatonic

You might be old I don't know- but you don't know a whole lot about dance music.

There is a lot of good dance music but if you're predisposed to hating the genres then I'm not sure posting examples would help.

Dance music is a pretty broad musical area- within it you have everything from Air to Goldie to Autechre to Daft Punk and loads of different music in between.

It can be savage and confronting or sweet and melodic.

Less people are in bands now as you can make music at home with a computer- some of it is rubbish but there are some interesting and creative folks out there who would probably have been in bands 30 years ago because they would have no way to be musically creative without a band.

Now you don't need to.

I'm digging Louis the Child at the moment- it isn't very aggressive but I like its energy.

Some classic Drum N Bass for you:

Some Autechre:

Phil_aka_Pip

Drew_fx said:

Chalky said:

The problem has always been teenage psychology, which demands rejection of the previous generational cultures.

I don't think that's true at all.

Teenage rebellion is more about rebelling from their peers. The previous generation is largely irrelevant.

I can vaguely remember being a teenager (it was a long time ago). IIRC it was partly about distancing yourself from pop and other bubblegum music in order to appear serious about music in the eyes of the people who had already set themselves up as being "serious" about music (I refer to the other kids at school who were generally seen as "cool"), and partly about distancing yourself from what your parents thought was "acceptable" (because you thought it was "lame" or "tame"). So I think the previous generation was relevant (in that you had to kick against it), and you were partly rebelling against some of your peers in order to suck up to others.

So I can't say I'm in a great deal of agreement with Drew on that one.

Heartfeltdawn

Phil_aka_Pip said:

I can vaguely remember being a teenager (it was a long time ago). IIRC it was partly about distancing yourself from pop and other bubblegum music in order to appear serious about music in the eyes of the people who had already set themselves up as being "serious" about music (I refer to the other kids at school who were generally seen as "cool"), and partly about distancing yourself from what your parents thought was "acceptable" (because you thought it was "lame" or "tame"). So I think the previous generation was relevant (in that you had to kick against it), and you were partly rebelling against some of your peers in order to suck up to others.

So I can't say I'm in a great deal of agreement with Drew on that one.

That was then, this is now. Kicking against the previous generation ain't really going on to anywhere near the same degree as when you were at school. It's changed. 

Phil_aka_Pip

Heartfeltdawn said:

That was then, this is now. Kicking against the previous generation ain't really going on to anywhere near the same degree as when you were at school. It's changed. 

Shows how old I am, I guess. Hey ho.

littlegreenman

I was probably about the right age to experience dance music culture as it was born and developed, I was 18 when Voodoo Ray came out and remember the first time I went to the Mardi Gras in Liverpool in '89 on speed and LSD and thinking that the future had finally arrived! Went to plenty of warehouse parties and parties out in the countryside as it went on and saw the rise (and fall) of the luv'd up E generation. Once Coke replaced E as the drug of choice it went very South, very quickly!

Aphex Twin, Plasticman and Josh Wink were as much a part of my musical education as Steve Vai, Zappa and Miles Davis. I was going to college studying guitar during the week, and raving at the weekends, no conflict of interests at all to me. It's all just music.

I still love good EDM, but if it's too loud and on a bad PA distorting then it's like anything else on a similar system. A bit pants.

Never really saw it as a rebellious culture though, except for the drugs part.

jpfamps

octatonic said:

You might be old I don't know- but you don't know a whole lot about dance music.

There is a lot of good dance music but if you're predisposed to hating the genres then I'm not sure posting examples would help.

Dance music is a pretty broad musical area- within it you have everything from Air to Goldie to Autechre to Daft Punk and loads of different music in between.

It can be savage and confronting or sweet and melodic.

Less people are in bands now as you can make music at home with a computer- some of it is rubbish but there are some interesting and creative folks out there who would probably have been in bands 30 years ago because they would have no way to be musically creative without a band.

Now you don't need to.

I'm digging Louis the Child at the moment- it isn't very aggressive but I like its energy.

Some classic Drum N Bass for you:

Some Autechre:

My knowledge of "dance music" is based on being subjected to it over a number of years; I've played more weddings than I care to remember over the last 20 years and they almost always have a disco as well.

People do seem to like it. I don't.

The examples you have posted have nothing to change my opinion.

I find it at best boring and at worst very irritating.

Regardless, last night, the sound system was so loud and distorted that even listening to music I like would not have been a pleasurable experience. It was truly a horrible environment, yet the pub was rammed. This was in Central London where there is plenty of choice. I'm truly amazed that anyone actually enjoys this experience.

Disliking something is a matter of personal preference, even if this extends to a genre.

Music went wrong when you could make it without involving musicians.................

Sporky

jpfamps said:

Music went wrong when you could make it without involving musicians.................

If you make music you're a musician.

jpfamps

Sporky said:

jpfamps said:

Music went wrong when you could make it without involving musicians.................

If you make music you're a musician.

I can programme a drum machine, but it doesn't make me a drummer.

Sporky

Did you mean "instrumentalist" rather than "musician" then?

I'd say that as music gets easier to produce and record and release there will inevitably be more crap music out there. The flipside is that there'll also be more good music out there.

I'm not much keen on what I'd think of as "club" music, but there's a lot of good electronica out there.

jpfamps

Sporky said:

Did you mean "instrumentalist" rather than "musician" then?

I'd say that as music gets easier to produce and record and release there will inevitably be more crap music out there. The flipside is that there'll also be more good music out there.

I'm not much keen on what I'd think of as "club" music, but there's a lot of good electronica out there.

Instrumentalist, yes.

I'm not sure there is more good music being produced now.

I think that there is a greater dilution of talent.

Back in the day players got good by gigging a lot. That's virtually impossible now.

Furthermore there's a huge skill set required to make great music. Very few people have all the skills required.

octatonic

jpfamps said:

Sporky said:

Did you mean "instrumentalist" rather than "musician" then?

I'd say that as music gets easier to produce and record and release there will inevitably be more crap music out there. The flipside is that there'll also be more good music out there.

I'm not much keen on what I'd think of as "club" music, but there's a lot of good electronica out there.

Instrumentalist, yes.

I'm not sure there is more good music being produced now.

I think that there is a greater dilution of talent.

Back in the day players got good by gigging a lot. That's virtually impossible now.

Furthermore there's a huge skill set required to make great music. Very few people have all the skills required.

When was the last time you hung out in a major metropolitan city and saw a bunch of bands?

The skill set has never been so high.

The technical level that your average guitarist has is much higher than in the past, there are more people at what I guess I would call an 'elite' level of instrumental skill.

Drop into Kilburn some time and see some of the jam nights from the ICMP students- you will be amazed how well some people play.

Sporky

I don't disagree with much of that.

I do think there are people with great compositional abilities but without the co-ordination (or, possibly, the dedication) to get their musical ideas out via a conventional instrument.

jpfamps

octatonic said:

jpfamps said:

Sporky said:

Did you mean "instrumentalist" rather than "musician" then?

I'd say that as music gets easier to produce and record and release there will inevitably be more crap music out there. The flipside is that there'll also be more good music out there.

I'm not much keen on what I'd think of as "club" music, but there's a lot of good electronica out there.

Instrumentalist, yes.

I'm not sure there is more good music being produced now.

I think that there is a greater dilution of talent.

Back in the day players got good by gigging a lot. That's virtually impossible now.

Furthermore there's a huge skill set required to make great music. Very few people have all the skills required.

When was the last time you hung out in a major metropolitan city and saw a bunch of bands?

The skill set has never been so high.

The technical level that your average guitarist has is much higher than in the past, there are more people at what I guess I would call an 'elite' level of instrumental skill.

Drop into Kilburn some time and see some of the jam nights from the ICMP students- you will be amazed how well some people play.

I assume London would qualify as a major metropolitan city. I've lived here for 25 years!

I see live music all the time.

octatonic

You're entitled to your opinion of course- but I cannot disagree more.

Sure there are issues- labels don't fund new music, music can tend to be derivative because the only stuff that labels will go for is a subtle reworking of what has happened before but the actual musical skill of musicians has really never been higher.

I put this down to the internet.

I can spent 2 mins searching on youtube and find note for note transcriptions of virtually every song ever written and people putting tuitionsvideos up for free.

Justin Sandercoe's website is probably responsible for at least a 20% uplift in musical ability over the last 10 or so years.

Musical greatness, you could argue, is harder to find- being an amazing songwriter or artist is something beyond just being a great instrumentalist.

I do maintain that the level of many musicians is way, way, way higher than they were, say 25 years ago when I first started gigging.

hugbot

jpfamps;946079" said:

Sporky said:



jpfamps said:



Music went wrong when you could make it without involving musicians.................





If you make music you're a musician.










I can programme a drum machine, but it doesn't make me a drummer.

I can write sheet music for violin and that doesn't make me a violin player. Nonetheless I would still be composing music.

EricTheWeary

jpfamps said:

I was in a public house not of my choice last night

The pub was on 3 floors, was rammed and "dance" music was being played and all floors and INCREDIBLY loud and distorted. I mean REALLY REALLY loud, to the point you couldn't even converse by shouting. And I was constantly jostled by punters.

Do people actually enjoy this?

It seemed to be that there were a lot of people in there who looked like they were pretending to have a good time.

Now it's difficult for me to articulate how much I dislike "dance music"; to me it reminds me of when I used to work in a factory.

Am I getting old?

Playing gigs ( which isn't that often), office Xmas do, quiet lunch - outside of these I don't really go to pubs. What music people like and/ or dance to is varied and that's , probably, a good thing. This did, however, remind me of a pub we've played a couple of times. They have a DJ, of sorts, on before and after the band. The music is basically ska and reggae so this is actually music I like. But far too loud for the space and pushing the speakers so that everything distorts. Do people enjoy that? I don't, they seem to. It wouldn't take s lot to make it better but maybe if you're just pished it's fine.

ICBM

jpfamps said:

It wouldn't be surprised if a load of people who regularly went raving in their youth end up with premature hearing loss.

I think in-ear headphones will have a lot to do with it as well - particularly as exposure time is as important as outright volume, except in extreme cases.

jpfamps said:

I can programme a drum machine, but it doesn't make me a drummer.

No, but it does make you a musician.

As hugbot said, a classical composer won't be able to play every instrument in the orchestra, but can still write a symphony using those instruments. The physical skill to play an instrument isn't the same as being able to use its sound musically.

Heartfeltdawn

jpfamps said:Instrumentalist, yes.

I'm not sure there is more good music being produced now.

I think that there is a greater dilution of talent.

Back in the day players got good by gigging a lot. That's virtually impossible now.

Furthermore there's a huge skill set required to make great music. Very few people have all the skills required.

There's less development of talent. I agree that musicians don't improve as much with the reduction in gigging. 

Producing great music - even a dude like Brian Wilson still required string arrangers, a good producer, a bit of inspiration from elsewhere. Very few people now have the skills required and very few people in the past had the skills required. Now that anyone can record and produce a record, there are bands out there who never get to see a decent producer and so miss out on how a good producer and recording engineer can shape a band, throw up some new ideas etc. 

Great music came from limited musicians in the past. The Ramones through to Oasis. I actually think the musical knowledge is at least as as good as it was in the 60's. The difference is that, with such reduced record company investment in bands compared to 20 years ago, there isn't the development process going on.