Govt to monitor everyone's browsing!

Stevepage

I reckon the whole country should come together and just browse pictures of Theresa May nudes, just to piss her off.

octatonic

digitalscream said:

octatonic said:

Utterly pointless.

It is like they don't understand how a VPN works.

...it's like you've forgotten the bit of the anti-terror laws which states you have to hand over any encryption keys on request from the authorities, or face mandatory prison time

I've not forgotten that- I'm talking about the wider issue about how/why they are doing it.

If they are trying to catch terrorists, which they say they are, the terrorists will simply use a VPN.

Jail time- we are talking about people who willingly blow themselves up- they don't give a flying fuck about a potential threat of jail.

For you and I, mostly/nominally law abiding in many ways, sure we can use a VPN and yes there is the threat of jail if you don't hand over the keys- but there is also a degree security through obscurity- or freedom through anonymity.

If they want my VPN key they can have it- I'm only using really using it for Netflix and to be able to get iPlayer when travelling out of the country.

It is a bit like copy protection- it only inconveniences the law abiding.

People who want to pirate software/become terrorists simply bypass the rules that the rest of us abide by.

I'm personally unconcerned about this bill- it is going to be a nightmare to administer- I give it a few months before they realise it is unworkable. I do think it sets a dangerous precedent.

Sambostar

Ironic isn't it, more prying big government from an ex glamour model 'Tory' MP.

Meanwhile the 'Socialist' Cherie Blair is taking the new tax on BTL to appeal at the European Court of Human Rights.

They all need shooting or at the very least a public flogging if you ask me.  Got that on record?  Good, now stick it up you arse.

Danny1969

What I don't understand is how in the days of wi fi networks everywhere you can monitor who's doing what. If I wanted to send my terrorist buddies some emails about our bombs and stuff I would just get a Pay as You Go smart phone from a supermarket and log on to Wetherspoons Wi Fi . I probably wouldn't use my Virgin Media account

I couldn't give a toss if they do monitor everything though. I'm all for mandatory DNA  samples and CCTV everywhere too. The people who do give a toss are those who generally have something to hide. 

We do live in a big brother age. My wife can see where I am on her phone, it's useful for gaugung when to put dinner on 

Sambostar

Innocent always pay for the guilty, that is just how British society works, no point fighting it.

Gassage

It really comes to something when Cameron and his cronies are jealous of my pedalboard.

Sambostar

Why hasn't a government minister been targeted since Lord Mountbatten and Thatcher though?  Now I realise the Americans had to eliminate Mountbatten after the 70's, after all he was the chosen acting Head of State should America invade due to socialism overcoming a what then amounts to a rogue nuclear State, should it come to that, fair enough, couldn't have him blabbing into old age.  Even if shortly afterwards thatcher introduced deregulated American banking in the UK which isn't suspect in the least.  But why?  I mean, they would hardly become Martyrs.  It is all very conspiracy files. 

Honestly, I think they know Bills like this are unworkable and useless, I think they, in their minds think it will just bring in more Tax revenue from more business and higher prices and I think that is their sole aim.

axisus

Does this mean that if I lose the URL for the two dwarves, one salami and a pregnant bride site I can ring the govt for a reminder?

Gassage

axisus said:

Does this mean that if I lose the URL for the two dwarves, one salami and a pregnant bride site I can ring the govt for a reminder?

Nah- @octatonic has got them bookmarked too. Just pm him.

Emp_Fab

Just out of curiosity, who here uses a VPN?

chillidoggy

Touting for business?

57Deluxe

Seriously, this is always about how such info gets used against you. The data can never be secure and many organizations would love to buy it to boot. Also, imagine this trend of having to keep justifying your departments existence - need a cleanup in crime? - trawl who's clicked on something 'dodgy' - go and haul their asses in in a dawn raid...

CabbageCat

57Deluxe said:

Seriously, this is always about how such info gets used against you. The data can never be secure and many organizations would love to buy it to boot. Also, imagine this trend of having to keep justifying you departments existence - need a cleanup in crime? - trawl who's clicked on something dodgy - go and haul their asses in in a dawn raid...

Presumably if it's illegal to "click on something dodgy" then this isn't really such a bad thing?

PC_Dave

I don't see how using a VPN helps - yes it encrypts the physical network traffic as it travels end to end, but whatever it is you look at is still on your hard disk once you see it, and no matter how clever you think you are there is always someone cleverer. They work for the Security Service or Police in the Digital Forensics department, and they will always find what you were looking at.

There is no hiding.

digitalscream

octatonic said:

digitalscream said:

octatonic said:

Utterly pointless.

It is like they don't understand how a VPN works.

...it's like you've forgotten the bit of the anti-terror laws which states you have to hand over any encryption keys on request from the authorities, or face mandatory prison time

I've not forgotten that- I'm talking about the wider issue about how/why they are doing it.

If they are trying to catch terrorists, which they say they are, the terrorists will simply use a VPN.

Jail time- we are talking about people who willingly blow themselves up- they don't give a flying fuck about a potential threat of jail.

For you and I, mostly/nominally law abiding in many ways, sure we can use a VPN and yes there is the threat of jail if you don't hand over the keys- but there is also a degree security through obscurity- or freedom through anonymity.

If they want my VPN key they can have it- I'm only using really using it for Netflix and to be able to get iPlayer when travelling out of the country.

It is a bit like copy protection- it only inconveniences the law abiding.

People who want to pirate software/become terrorists simply bypass the rules that the rest of us abide by.

I'm personally unconcerned about this bill- it is going to be a nightmare to administer- I give it a few months before they realise it is unworkable. I do think it sets a dangerous precedent.

The thing is, most VPN encryption is crackable these days, so the "give us your key or jail" thing is more of a time-saving measure than anything else (as well as getting around jurisdictional problems - ie they want access to your account on a site hosted in a country they can't sweet-talk into just handing over your details).

The PPTP VPN protocol is compromised, as is L2TP/IPsec. 1024-bit RSA encryption is broken (when it comes to government intrusion), which means most HTTPS and SSL/TLS certificates can only be considered as casual authentication sources rather than privacy-enhancing objects.

On top of that, 300 of the largest VPN providers have been compromised (according to the Snowden documents).

That pretty much covers most of the VPN traffic around.

OpenVPN appears to be an exception, because it uses ephemeral keys and is thus only susceptible to man-in-the-middle attacks (that we know of), and that can only really be done if you've already managed to compromise the private key; that means that it'd have to be a targeted attack, rather than a general slurp.

boogieman

PC_Dave;957310" said:

I don't see how using a VPN helps - yes it encrypts the physical network traffic as it travels end to end, but whatever it is you look at is still on your hard disk once you see it, and no matter how clever you think you are there is always someone cleverer. They work for the Security Service or Police in the Digital Forensics department, and they will always find what you were looking at.



There is no hiding.

This ^.

Governments will always find the money and resources to throw at things if they really want the end result. A friend of mine was allowed into a low level security part of Quantico a few years ago. They had a department where a team of people were doing nothing but reassembling paperwork that had been put through a shredder. Must have taken years.

digitalscream

boogieman said:

PC_Dave;957310" said:

I don't see how using a VPN helps - yes it encrypts the physical network traffic as it travels end to end, but whatever it is you look at is still on your hard disk once you see it, and no matter how clever you think you are there is always someone cleverer. They work for the Security Service or Police in the Digital Forensics department, and they will always find what you were looking at.



There is no hiding.

This ^.

Governments will always find the money and resources to throw at things if they really want the end result. A friend of mine was allowed into a low level security part of Quantico a few years ago. They had a department where a team of people were doing nothing but reassembling paperwork that had been put through a shredder. Must have taken years.

It's pretty trivial to run a total RAM-based OS with a read-only disk, at which point anything that happened during a session is irretrievably gone (to somebody accessing it after the fact).

In fact, pretty much any Linux live USB stick would do the trick for that.

Emp_Fab

Ahh... and there Mr CabbageCat is the nub of the entire issue.  Unfortunately, we don't get to decide what constitutes "dodgy" - the Government does.  At a stroke, it can spy on your private activities, what interests you, what you are searching for, what you are viewing, what you don't click on.  It's as close to getting access to your innermost thoughts as is possible.  I want the freedom to be me, I don't want to be monitored, checked, watched 24h a day to make sure I'm complying with the State's idea of what constitutes a model citizen.  Fuck off !  They are our servants.  They are our employees.  I want them to help the country prosper, look after the environment and keep us safe from harm.  If they can't manage that without spying on us - we need to end their contract.

Imagine the CEO of a large company employing a security firm to safeguard his factories and the firm insisting on putting CCTV in the CEO's house to keep an eye on him.  He'd obviously tell them to fuck off.

With current technology, the next logical step would be to extend the current massive CCTV surveillance network we already have into people's homes.  I'm quite certain the government would jump at the chance to be able to look into every room of every house at any time - imagine the advantages - no criminal would be safe !  It's the only logical thing to do to prevent terrorism.  We could catch them building bombs before they even left the house.  We could spot child abuse, domestic violence, drug taking.  We could listen to conversations... people planning crime..  people dissing the government.

The naive roll out the "if you haven't done anything wrong then you've got nothing to fear" line every time another government encroaches upon its citizens' civil liberties.  The assumption here is that "The Government" is always right, like a kindly grandparent that always only ever has your best interests at heart.  The reality is that such idealistic and irreproachable governments don't exist.  They never have and they never will.

ICBM

If you've done nothing wrong you have nothing to fear.

Tell that to the family of Jean Charles de Menezes.

Chalky

As @ICBM says, it is too easy to have faith in the govt/security/police forces and think they will never come knocking on your door. True, its about the same chance as winning the lottery. But the lottery gets won by someone many times in a year. In these days when an accusation of "terrorist activity" can arise from a stupid but curious teenager browsing how to make a bomb in between porn sites, then it isn't as far fetched as we might think.