Is anyone here self taught

xsheq

I had some lessons when I first started playing, and then went on to study guitarists and their styles on my own. It was important for me to have a foundation in technique to work from. I wasn't too interested in advanced theory (much to my regret). Now after 25 years of playing, I also teach, but only in 30 minute blocks. Much more than that and it's hard for the student to absorb much past that. In my experience, then, some basic knowledge is important, as there are many things specific to you that no youtube video is going to teach you. Good luck on your journey! 

octatonic

Phil_aka_Pip said:

octatonic said:

You're right, with the guitar traditional notation tells you nothing about where to place the notes- that is a musical/tonal choice to a degree though. 

A number in a circle tells you which string the note is on. A small number next to the note head tells you which finger to fret it with, Roman numerals above the stave tell you which position you should be in. You can't be more explicit than that! (applies to guitar music only - if you were transcribing music written for another instrument you'd have to work it out yourself)

I don't think you know what I mean- you are describing tab, not notation.

Traditional notation (i.e. dots) does not tell you where to place the note on the  guitar- there are usually 3 -5  of the same note on a guitar.

For instance, if you see a C above middle C on the stave (so C4) do you play that on the 1st fret of the 2nd string, the 5th fret of the 3rd string, or the 10th fret of the 4th string, 15th fret of the 5th string or the 20th fret on the 6th string?

What I am saying is traditional notation doesn't tell you where to play it on the guitar, which is why guitarists struggle with notation (and prefer tab)

It is easier for a pianist- there is only one place for C4 to be found.

Phil_aka_Pip

@octatonic I'm talking about notation for classical guitar, as in Trinity grade books and many of the repertoire books in my collection.

LastMantra

I was watching a few u-tube vids the other day and noticed the usual guitar "cheats". You know, the "learn this simple technique and sound like a guitar god" type things. I wondered, how many guitar cheats do you need to learn before you can actually play guitar?

I think that's largely how I learned. By picking up little tricks and techniques that I thought sounded cool, then sticking them all together.

In fact I think I might take them all and make a DVD. "Learn guitar backwards" by Clarence Clatterbucket.

octatonic

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@octatonic I'm talking about notation for classical guitar, as in Trinity grade books and many of the repertoire books in my collection.

Ah I get you- that is specific classical guitar music though.

That almost never gets used outside the genre and doesn't always get used within the genre.

It also doesn't get taught at non-classical oriented music schools.

citizen68

I'm completely self taught. Started in '84 and the only resource I had starting out was 'Hold Down a Chord' by the late John Pearse - my dad had it lying around after his efforts to try to learn. Along with that I just listened to records (mainly AC/DC to begin with).

Always learned the names of chords though & that helped when starting our first band. Later on I started delving more into theory - note names, chords, scales & harmony etc 

Did the RGT grade 5 exam in 2011 as I'd thought about teaching & wanted something to show parents just in case - still haven't gotten around to teaching yet though, except for my daughter who's showing an interest now thankfully. 

 I'd love to go back & get grade 8 just for myself but have no real impetus to do so - would really recommend the RGT series for anyone wanting to brush up their theory.

Phil_aka_Pip

octatonic said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@octatonic I'm talking about notation for classical guitar, as in Trinity grade books and many of the repertoire books in my collection.

Ah I get you- that is specific classical guitar music though.

That almost never gets used outside the genre and doesn't always get used within the genre.

It also doesn't get taught at non-classical oriented music schools.

yes. As I said, if you want to play flute music on guitar you have to suss the fingerings yourself. An interesting exercise  no doubt

octatonic

Phil_aka_Pip said:

octatonic said:

Phil_aka_Pip said:

@octatonic I'm talking about notation for classical guitar, as in Trinity grade books and many of the repertoire books in my collection.

Ah I get you- that is specific classical guitar music though.

That almost never gets used outside the genre and doesn't always get used within the genre.

It also doesn't get taught at non-classical oriented music schools.

yes. As I said, if you want to play flute music on guitar you have to suss the fingerings yourself. An interesting exercise  no doubt

Pretty much all jazz guitar transcriptions are devoid of fingerings unless they are supplied with tab at the same time.

The most interesting challenge is trying to sightread transcribed sax heads/solos- you have to transpose from Bb into C and place the notes on the guitar all at once.

Mindfuck.

57Deluxe

amazes me that even drums have scores.... I don't know any drummers that can read let alone follow a score...

https://ashturner1.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/seven-days-drum-score.png?w=750

citizen68

Talking to a great drummer last week who can't teach because he says everyone wants to learn to read these days & he can't...

Phil_aka_Pip

@57Deluxe the best drummer I ever worked with could read and write drum notation, although he often didn't use it because he was good at remembering stuff and instinctively knew the right beats to use for whatever music he was playing

EricTheWeary

57Deluxe;967928" said:

amazes me that even drums have scores.... I don't know any drummers that can read let alone follow a score...



https://ashturner1.files.wordpress.com/2011/11/seven-days-drum-score.png?w=750

At a basic level drum scores are pretty straightforward, like there's only one place to hit middle C on a pianee there's only one floor tom, one snare drum, etc. And drummers don't usually have 88 bits of percussion. Because drums generally don't have a tuned pitch you can even hit the wrong drum at the right time and it will sort of work.

uncledick

I can remember being taught at primary school that the lines on the stave represented the not EGBD & F.  This was easy to recall using the mnemonic Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit.  The other half of my music tuition was that the spaces in between spelt the word FACE.  I'm ashamed to admit how many years it was before I realised that if you put the two together it just works out as EFGABCDEF etc.  

That was around 1970 and everything on guitar I've taught myself.  I've often considered lessons but I'm not really sure what I want to learn.  I play in a band from time to time and my technical limitations mainly come to light when I'm trying to learn something.  Someone more proficient would know that certain chords would never be used together in a particular context whereas I find myself just trying everything until it sounds ok.  

Looking back, I suppose the thing which has helped me most is playing in a band setting.  I don't even know if that discipline is taught but it is certainly something that a lot of musicians could do with learning.

koneguitarist

uncledick said:

I can remember being taught at primary school that the lines on the stave represented the not EGBD & F.  This was easy to recall using the mnemonic Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit.  The other half of my music tuition was that the spaces in between spelt the word FACE.  I'm ashamed to admit how many years it was before I realised that if you put the two together it just works out as EFGABCDEF etc.  

That was around 1970 and everything on guitar I've taught myself.  I've often considered lessons but I'm not really sure what I want to learn.  I play in a band from time to time and my technical limitations mainly come to light when I'm trying to learn something.  Someone more proficient would know that certain chords would never be used together in a particular context whereas I find myself just trying everything until it sounds ok.  

Looking back, I suppose the thing which has helped me most is playing in a band setting.  I don't even know if that discipline is taught but it is certainly something that a lot of musicians could do with learning.

I am ashamed to say, I didn't know that about the notes! ">

SCMIV

I had basic tuition for about a year as a young teenager before my guitar tutor moved away, and I somehow didn't get around to getting another (I think I do regret this a wee bit though I didn't at the time). I was entirely self-led after that. Now, though, I'm actually going back to lessons quite soon. Mainly to correct deficits, bad habits, but also to broaden my skills a bit, because like all self-taught/led guitar players I have a really uneven set of skills. The problem I had earlier on that discouraged me from going back to tuition was that my first guitar-tutor took a total approach (teaching basics, chords in multiple positions, beginning sight-reading, and the major/minor/pentatonic for jamming all at the same time), which meant when those lessons stopped I knew very small amounts of various things, and not enough to build on all of them without another tutor. I totally never realised that it was alright to go to learn specific, targetted things rather than everything generally.

I got to that point of actively wanting more tuition quite recently, not by listening to and been blown away by mental, technical wizardry, but actually by playing in the same genre for years, gradually getting into completely different things alongside that, and having the realisation that I had absolutely no reference-points for those new things, no handle on how I'd even go about  incorporating anything like that into what I do (I got into the guitar stuff on the Sublime Frequencies label - Group Inerane, Bombino, african guitar playing, people like Mdou Moctar, more standard afro-beat stuff). not to say that I wanted to ape and copy anything in that vein, but the more that I listen to things way outside my comfort zone, this inevitably leads to realising the limitations of my playing, and the size what exactly my comfort zone is.

BahHumbug

A lad at school taught me the fundamentals of bass playing - enough so that I could back him doing Motörhead covers! Since then I'm self taught. I picked up a lot from articles in guitar magazines, including the basics of theory. In my early 30s I had piano lessons and did some exams - got my grade 7 and grade 5 theory. I was interested to see how much of the theory I knew already. From the piano lessons, I'd say that having a good teacher will push you out of your comfort zone consistently, whereas without a teacher you have to push yourself, which is difficult. Also a teacher gives you an independent view on yourself and will point out issues that you wouldn't spot yourself. After playing for 30 odd years, most people are impressed by my guitar and bass playing, but I'm really only goodish at an amateur level, and I know I'd be so much better if I'd had some good teachers.

EricTheWeary

uncledick;968150" said:

I can remember being taught at primary school that the lines on the stave represented the not EGBD & F.  This was easy to recall using the mnemonic Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit.  The other half of my music tuition was that the spaces in between spelt the word FACE.  I'm ashamed to admit how many years it was before I realised that if you put the two together it just works out as EFGABCDEF etc.  

That was around 1970 and everything on guitar I've taught myself.  I've often considered lessons but I'm not really sure what I want to learn.  I play in a band from time to time and my technical limitations mainly come to light when I'm trying to learn something.  Someone more proficient would know that certain chords would never be used together in a particular context whereas I find myself just trying everything until it sounds ok.  

Looking back, I suppose the thing which has helped me most is playing in a band setting.  I don't even know if that discipline is taught but it is certainly something that a lot of musicians could do with learning.

I knew Every Good Boy Deserves Favours from somewhere and the basics of key signatures (eg if the key signature says an F is sharp it's always sharp unless shown otherwise). Occasionally I've had sheet music for something and gone along writing the names of the notes above the dots and then played that with a rough sense of the rhythm from the notation and then fixed it from hearing the recording. I wouldn't recommend this as a way of learning anything but it has been useful at times.

wizbit81

I'd say no-one is really self taught. You learn from listening and watching other people, there's just degrees of formality when it comes to tuition. The only people who could say they are self taught are those who have never heard or seen another guitar player in their lives. These days there is an infinite sea of material....Youtube vids, books, DVD's, online lessons, forum articles, magazines, it's totally inescapable. Some people will study intensely, some will barely pick up a guitar and say they play. Whatever your level of ability, you learned from others. 

My experience is this:

Picked up a guitar at 15 after wanting one since I was 7. Had about 5 lessons at school from a teacher who showed me a few chords and House of the Rising Sun.

About 5 lessons at 6th form from a pretentious guy who annoyed me and held me back a lot.

Kept learning on my own until after uni when I did a summer course at GI in London.

Worked on reception at GI then completed the one year diploma course.

Taught in London for a bit while working in a guitar shop.

Went to Leeds College of Music and did a jazz degree.

Started doing a PhD at Leeds Uni in Advanced heirarchical leaning methods for music.

Went to work in IT as I couldn't afford to keep studying.

Had a few lessons with Greg Howe.

Still working in IT 10 years later.

Out of all this, by far the most important discoveries, by far the most important things I have learned, were done on my own in a room with a guitar. I've picked up loads from other people, but at the end of the day it's been me all along that's been responsible for my development. 

I just recently realised why I've always been rubbish at jazz. It's taken a decade but I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. Again, nobody noticed in 3 years of studying a flipping jazz degree....I had to realise myself.

viz

Sounds interesting re. jazz @wizbit81 - what were you doing wrong and what was the secret? I'm having lessons with Greg Howe and it's opening my eyes tremendously but I'd like to know what cracked it for you. Cheers.

By the way, when people say they are self-taught, I think we/they mean the same as what you said about yourself - ie when you were learning on your own until after uni, and when you say you learned those important things on your own in a room with a guitar - at the end of the day it's been you all along that's been responsible for your development. That's basically what people mean by self-taught, I think.

Phil_aka_Pip

wizbit81 said:

I just recently realised why I've always been rubbish at jazz. It's taken a decade but I finally figured out what I was doing wrong. Again, nobody noticed in 3 years of studying a flipping jazz degree....I had to realise myself.

I'm only just smart enough to realise that I also am "rubbish at jazz". Like Viz (not saying he's rubbish at anything you understand) I want to know what it was that made you "rubbish at jazz", and I wonder if its the same thing with me!