Is anyone here self taught

wizbit81

Interested parties in where I went wrong with jazz eh? Happy to tell, although if you can play it to a reasonable standard you'll not get any tips from this. 

Essentially I learned all my scale shapes, all over the neck, all keys. I could see any scale I wanted pretty much all over the neck within a heartbeat....that took a LOT of work, and I spent untold hours (hundreds) playing ii V I's with Band in a box, all keys, using harm minor and mel minor to create extensions as well as min6 pentatonics to create cool sounds. Result....I could 'play' jazz to a standard where I could play quite fast over tunes. 

The problems...

1. I always sounded like I was playing OVER the changes, not IN the changes. I minorised everything or related it to a key centre and so all my lines always sounded the same. The harmonic context would change, but my lines would often have the wrong notes of emphasis. 

2. This meant when learning a new jazz tune I'd spend 5 mins looking it over, isolating the key centres and mentally working out in my head how the neck patterns would change as I played through. I could never play a tune without doing this first. 

3. Playing scales in this manner meant that I slipped into familiar fingerings all the time, and my creativity was very limited when improvising. I knew all the right scale notes to play, but wasn't making conscious choices when picking them, and thinking about what sounds I wanted to paint.

Realisation.....thinking of whole scale shapes like this and then changing them in your head as the chords/key centres change is a massive mental overhead, taking up pretty much 100% of your mental processing power. It used to leave me exhausted after a short practice session and needing a sleep to recover. Instead of doing this the better way is to minimize mental overhead and allow more spare processing for note selection and contemplation of sounds. So, stop thinking about entire scale patterns all over the neck shifting, and just think about the next root note, and the basic chord tones around it. I learned my notes on the neck a lot faster, I learned my intervals more thoroughly, and:

1. Now I'm playing basic jazz but sound 100% IN the changes as I am playing mostly chord tones and connecting the chords via small steps or resolutions.

2. I am selecting sounds as well as chord tones and know what I'm playing and what it will sound like.

3. I can open the real book and just start playing (slowly) through most tunes in there, as all I need to be able to do is play the root note and the surrounding chord tones for each chord.

I spent nearly a decade on method 1....can see notes all over the board in a single key and have various ways of shredding round the neck. I still think it's the best way for standard rock and blues stuff. The new second method is the only way I can see jazz working properly though, and just wish I'd known it day one at uni. I wasted thousands of hours since then doing the wrong effing thing!!

viz

Interesting thanks. To me it's all about the tune. Take Girl from Ipanema for example. Noodling around on all those shifting chords would be impressive. Even better would be to be able to improvise and come up with something like that simple vocal melody on the fly. I guess that's the difference between your approaches before and after your epiphany? It would be good to hear / watch some of your playing! Have you got any videos?

wizbit81

Yeah sure dude.

First of all, here's a shot showing how much time I put into technical work:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WT9kJ0SLK1Q

Here's me teaching that solo where I breakdown the thinking behind it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OiinfI7lOQY

Here's one of my previous approach, whereby I'd written a solo based on scale shapes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VsKPePrC-I

I certainly couldn't have improvised that all in one, It came together over lots of short improvisations that went wrong It shows what I mean about playing OVER the changes though. There's very little chord tone targeting, I'm just thinking of cool melodies and devices.

I've not got a video of the new approach yet because I'm still so basic with it, but I'll do one if you like just so you can hear what it's like when I'm playing IN the changes and not over, i.e. it sounds like jazz and not whatever it is that I did in the past

viz

Yeah bung it on. Amazing playing by the way.

wizbit81

Cheers dude

I'll do one in the next couple of week to show the bare bones of what I think is the right approach, then hopefully one later down the line when I've properly learned to play like that!

robwright

I'm self-taught and very average but if I had the time/inclination/motivation I would use the amazing resources available online, especially justinguitar

nealgs

uncledick said:

I can remember being taught at primary school that the lines on the stave represented the not EGBD & F.  This was easy to recall using the mnemonic Every Good Boy Deserves Fruit.  The other half of my music tuition was that the spaces in between spelt the word FACE.  I'm ashamed to admit how many years it was before I realised that if you put the two together it just works out as EFGABCDEF etc.  

That was around 1970 and everything on guitar I've taught myself.  I've often considered lessons but I'm not really sure what I want to learn.  I play in a band from time to time and my technical limitations mainly come to light when I'm trying to learn something.  Someone more proficient would know that certain chords would never be used together in a particular context whereas I find myself just trying everything until it sounds ok.  

Looking back, I suppose the thing which has helped me most is playing in a band setting.  I don't even know if that discipline is taught but it is certainly something that a lot of musicians could do with learning.

Wow - just read that and it triggered a long distant memory from late 70's of the exact same thing - lol

Have only been 'playing' for a year, still very much a beginner, really enjoying it, and something i should of done years ago.

not had any lessons as yet (to embarrassed to let anyone see me 'playing' - hehe) but may decide to give it a go at some point down the line.

Gary

Placidcasual79

I could really use some help on this.....

I've been playing drums for 21 years (jesus!). Every band I was in I played drums - so no need for any understanding of anything too theoretical! 

But along side that I've tried to learn guitar, bass and keys - I record my own stuff at home - again the lack of theory didn't really hold me back in this arena either as I had time to work out what was right and what was not. 

Now after 20 odd years playing I landed my first gig as a guitarist - this has proved difficult in some respects - i can learn and play most songs - but improvisation/jamming is a nightmare - I don't know a thing about keys or scales or any of that biz!!!

I am actually considering taking lessons at the age of 36 and 20 plus years of playing. 

Mkjackary

Placidcasual79 said:

I could really use some help on this.....

I've been playing drums for 21 years (jesus!). Every band I was in I played drums - so no need for any understanding of anything too theoretical! 

But along side that I've tried to learn guitar, bass and keys - I record my own stuff at home - again the lack of theory didn't really hold me back in this arena either as I had time to work out what was right and what was not. 

Now after 20 odd years playing I landed my first gig as a guitarist - this has proved difficult in some respects - i can learn and play most songs - but improvisation/jamming is a nightmare - I don't know a thing about keys or scales or any of that biz!!!

I am actually considering taking lessons at the age of 36 and 20 plus years of playing. 

first of all, don't be ashamed of taking lessons. Secondly start learning Em pentatonics, start with position 1, get yourself used to what the intervals sound like, then after a bit of practice and playing (not as much as you might think) you can hit a note and know "it will sound really good if I play a minor 3rd up from here, or a major 2nd down from here" but not consciously.

I only learnt position one of Em pentatonic, then started jamming with myself in Em, and the other positions just came along with it, I never had to look them up, as I just used my ears at that point to know where to go next.

Then I added a major 2nd and 6th and hey presto I'm playing dorian, then just make the minor third a major and it is mixolydian. 

By the time you are comfortable with the Em pentatonic you won't need to look at the notes to know where you are going to go. you just recognise which note you are playing, and then play around it. So from that point it is super easy to just play in all 12 keys of minor pentatonic. When you are getting started just don't look down, and listen.

As far as I am concerned, for a rock guitarist, the order of scales should be pentatonic>dorian>mixolydian

Start with the easiest, and most used, then add two notes and get a minor scale with a twist, then change one note and get a major scale that I much prefer to use for solos. Even if a song isn't in mixolydian, and is just major C, you can play mix C over it and it will sound cool \m/. Same with dorian.

Then you can play over most major and minor stuff in any key, and you have basically only learnt one scale.

Some people I know start with major scale (which is rarely used imo for soloing, although it is certainly good to know), then pentatonic (in Em and Am and Gm etc), then maj pentatonic(ditto), then start with modes and the like, and learn each scale all the way up and down the neck. With this you just learn pentatonic in Em all the way up an down the neck, then learn to move it to different keys, then just add two notes for dorian, and move one for mixolydian. Then you know what to play in any key basically.

"okay we are playing in Gmajor" So just jam playing G mixolydian over the top

Mkjackary

I always find mixolydian to be cool, and Ionian (normal major scale) to be very cliche.

I am a very lazy person when I want to be, so I have found the quickest way with the least learning possible to know as much as possible, for me atleast.

Placidcasual79

Mkjackary said:

Placidcasual79 said:

I could really use some help on this.....

I've been playing drums for 21 years (jesus!). Every band I was in I played drums - so no need for any understanding of anything too theoretical! 

But along side that I've tried to learn guitar, bass and keys - I record my own stuff at home - again the lack of theory didn't really hold me back in this arena either as I had time to work out what was right and what was not. 

Now after 20 odd years playing I landed my first gig as a guitarist - this has proved difficult in some respects - i can learn and play most songs - but improvisation/jamming is a nightmare - I don't know a thing about keys or scales or any of that biz!!!

I am actually considering taking lessons at the age of 36 and 20 plus years of playing. 

first of all, don't be ashamed of taking lessons. Secondly start learning Em pentatonics, start with position 1, get yourself used to what the intervals sound like, then after a bit of practice and playing (not as much as you might think) you can hit a note and know "it will sound really good if I play a minor 3rd up from here, or a major 2nd down from here" but not consciously.

I only learnt position one of Em pentatonic, then started jamming with myself in Em, and the other positions just came along with it, I never had to look them up, as I just used my ears at that point to know where to go next.

Then I added a major 2nd and 6th and hey presto I'm playing dorian, then just make the minor third a major and it is mixolydian. 

By the time you are comfortable with the Em pentatonic you won't need to look at the notes to know where you are going to go. you just recognise which note you are playing, and then play around it. So from that point it is super easy to just play in all 12 keys of minor pentatonic. When you are getting started just don't look down, and listen.

As far as I am concerned, for a rock guitarist, the order of scales should be pentatonic>dorian>mixolydian

Start with the easiest, and most used, then add two notes and get a minor scale with a twist, then change one note and get a major scale that I much prefer to use for solos. Even if a song isn't in mixolydian, and is just major C, you can play mix C over it and it will sound cool \m/. Same with dorian.

Then you can play over most major and minor stuff in any key, and you have basically only learnt one scale.

Some people I know start with major scale (which is rarely used imo for soloing, although it is certainly good to know), then pentatonic (in Em and Am and Gm etc), then maj pentatonic(ditto), then start with modes and the like, and learn each scale all the way up and down the neck. With this you just learn pentatonic in Em all the way up an down the neck, then learn to move it to different keys, then just add two notes for dorian, and move one for mixolydian. Then you know what to play in any key basically.

"okay we are playing in Gmajor" So just jam playing G mixolydian over the top

Cheers for the encouragement and advice - I am not ashamed to take lessons - in fact I am quite looking forward to it - I've got by ok so far - 2 years 30ish gigs in..... I can playa and have my own patterns or places on the guitar that I know go with certain stuff. i typically go home record the chord progression of the song were learning then practise soloing over it till I have something which must roughly be in key! I am sure I have picked up many bad habits along the way!!! What I can't do is solo up and down the neck yet....

I don't understand a lot of the advice you've given - I play Ska in the band, but i am totally prepared to start googling tonight and to see where I get to. Whats decided is that I have to learn properly now! 

tabbycat

self-taught. but have been told by pro music teachers that i know socially that i have good natural 'musicality', so that might have made it easier for me. i just naturally feel things like rhythm, intervals, harmony/discord, etc, without (so it seems) having to really consciously think about them. they just seem to have been in me from the start.
also the order i learned; drums, bass, rhythm guitar, lead, helped, as it built up from tempo to one note melody, to chords related to melody, to 'everything at once'. if i had just sat down and tried to learn 'everything at once' i might have got stuck.
starting young helps too, as you have time and you can be totally obsessive and single-minded about it, in a way you can't when you have to fit it around adult life. i started drumming when i was ten.

as others have said in their own way, i probably have what might be regarded in classically trained circles as 'bad' technique or 'homemade' technique, but it's perfect technique for doing what i want to do with it.

@Placidcasual79 re your fear of improvising and jamming, less is often more. far better to play something with a few notes you can deal with and manipulate well, than overwhelm yourself trying to be clever before you are ready and die on your arse. compensate for that economy by bringing what you already know and do well (your drumming) into your guitar playing. bring your depth of understanding of different time signatures, and how to fill spaces and leave silences (regardless of pitch) to create dramatic and interesting effects, to bear on your few well-chosen notes. don't play to your current shortcomings (technical melodic prowess), play to your strengths (rhythm).

most of the best guitar solos i have heard are not those widdly things that go on for hours, but a few thoughfully chosen notes that carve themselves, in light and shade, out of the space left in the song for them to fill. clapton's solo in the beatles (george's) 'while my guitar gently weeps' etc. a monstrous solo, but neither fast or busy. it also doesn't try to be the whole event, but locates itself perfectly in harmony and counterpoint with its context.

Placidcasual79

tabbycat said:

self-taught. but have been told by pro music teachers that i know socially that i have good natural 'musicality', so that might have made it easier for me. i just naturally feel things like rhythm, intervals, harmony/discord, etc, without (so it seems) having to really consciously think about them. they just seem to have been in me from the start.
also the order i learned; drums, bass, rhythm guitar, lead, helped, as it built up from tempo to one note melody, to chords related to melody, to 'everything at once'. if i had just sat down and tried to learn 'everything at once' i might have got stuck.
starting young helps too, as you have time and you can be totally obsessive and single-minded about it, in a way you can't when you have to fit it around adult life. i started drumming when i was ten.

as others have said in their own way, i probably have what might be regarded in classically trained circles as 'bad' technique or 'homemade' technique, but it's perfect technique for doing what i want to do with it.

@Placidcasual79 re your fear of improvising and jamming, less is often more. far better to play something with a few notes you can deal with and manipulate well, than overwhelm yourself trying to be clever before you are ready and die on your arse. compensate for that economy by bringing what you already know and do well (your drumming) into your guitar playing. bring your depth of understanding of different time signatures, and how to fill spaces and leave silences (regardless of pitch) to create dramatic and interesting effects, to bear on your few well-chosen notes. don't play to your current shortcomings (technical melodic prowess), play to your strengths (rhythm).

most of the best guitar solos i have heard are not those widdly things that go on for hours, but a few thoughfully chosen notes that carve themselves, in light and shade, out of the space left in the song for them to fill. clapton's solo in the beatles (george's) 'while my guitar gently weeps' etc. a monstrous solo, but neither fast or busy. it also doesn't try to be the whole event, but locates itself perfectly in harmony and counterpoint with its context.

Hey Tabby - thanks for the advice and encouragement. I appreciate what your saying. Interestingly I've never been into overly technical playing - don't know if thats a reflection of limitations or my limitations influence my taste. 

When I play live I use what I know is safe and I am sure some of the things I think of as safe patterns are probably something close to scales. As you say you suggest you can do a lot with dynamics, spacing and phrasing. I enjoy it and get by. But i want to open up more possibilities (And maybe secretly every once in a while going on one of those up, down and back neck runs!!!) and be able to play with other musicians outside of the band and the songs we learn more freely. Writing has always been a creative release for me but now I am realising that live performance can be a more immediate version of that same thing. 

I am gong to knuckle down and learn some stuff!! 

pintspiller

Clarky said:

I'm self taught on guitar and drums and had drum lessons at school after I'd been playing for about a year or so..

interestingly.. now that I teach, I see my students advance so much more quickly than I did..

and it makes me a bit envious.. lmao

i gave lessons for a while too. from what i saw of some of my students, it made me realise that not taking lessons and working it out for myself from books was much much much slower

EdGrip

I had piano lessons for a bit as a kid, but only took G1 theory I think. Then mum taught me to play chords on her nylon-strung folk guitar because I wanted to play American Pie, and Bad To The Bone cos off of Terminator 2. One thing led inevitably to another, and I ended up with an Epiphone Les Paul for my 14th birthday, which is now My Other Guitar. I was content playing Feeder badly, all like

"I don't know what Dmaj7 means. I just know the sound it makes before I hammer out the Mrs Robinson chorus again."

Around that time I had violin lessons for a bit at school, but never practiced because I had an electric guitar which I was inefficiently teaching myself to play badly. I still love bashing out my favourite bits of my favourite songs, shorn of context, and still derive lots of pleasure from playing guitar. But I would undoubtedly be a far better player if I'd taken it a bit more seriously and had lessons.

Drew_TNBD

Yep. Self taught guitarist, bassist, keyboard player, and drummer. I've only taken lessons for singing.

guitarfishbay

I had piano lessons, and had a couple of years of guitar lessons but haven't had a lesson in over 10 years.  I've been part of a percussion school for several years but the tuition is fairly informal (no sheet music for starters).

I taught myself bass - and my fingerstyle technique was poor until a bass player showed me a few things I was doing inefficiently.

This is the thing... unless you know what you're doing wrong you can't correct it.  So even though it is possible to learn with no lessons sometimes observations from more experienced and advanced players (e.g. a teacher) can be invaluable, especially with technique.

MikeDearing

totally self taught guitar, bass,double bass, harmonica  and drums... though was a percussionist and brass player and singer that could sight read from 6 years old as a chorister.. I doubt I can sight read now.. rely on ears even though I'm going deaf..  I can still hear some fairly tricky voicings, though it depends on stage volume these days as to accuracy...