Drummer issues....

FarleyUK

So, I created the current band about 2 and a half years ago, and the current drummer has been with us for about 2 years now. He's a decent guy, very keen and likeable. We have done almost 100 gigs as a unit, but there's just one issue with him, and I don't think I can ignore it any longer....

The guy only has one 'beat' when he drums.

We're a covers band, so we try and get the songs as close to the original as we can; the guitars, vocals and bass all sound good, but the drummer appears to never learn any of the fills, rolls or stops properly. This has been going on for a while, but I think something needs to be done about it - we tried Back in Black the other day, and he completely shafted the drums - no groove, swagger or feel to it. It had been turned into something very different!

Now, I'm not sure how to approach it with him, as he and the bassist/singer are VERY close. The bassist/singer doesn't get involved in band stuff much (which we've all come to accept) and is very laid back so probably doesn't care about the drums.

However, from speaking to the rhythm guitarist, we both feel the same. We're tempted to not say anything until next rehearsal, and just stop every time the drums aren't right, so he has to make sure he goes and learns the correct beats, fills etc.

 Sure, I might sound like an a$$hole, but I just want the band to be moving up, not stuck at being as strong as the poor drums....!

Anyone else had to navigate a similar issue? Any advice?

bobblehat

W play 10am Automatic by the Black Keys.The drums arent particularly hard but there is a certain groove to them that you have to get right for the song to work.Our drummer just made up his own version of what he thought it should be but it just wasnt right and it used to really wind me up.I downloaded a drum tab for the song and gave it to our drummer . He thought i was taking the piss at first but when he learnt to play the song properly it made him realise just how badly he'd been playing it.He tends to listen a bit more now.

Cirrus

I did in a pub covers band I was in several years ago. Basically the same issue - no matter what the song was, the drummer basically had one beat and he'd often pretty much start every song at the same tempo too.

Honestly, I didn't do anything about it. In practices I'd pick up on the tempo thing, but I figured he wasn't going to become a better/ more competent drummer with me breathing down his neck - he'd been playing for 30 years, if he was gonna learn he'd have done it by then! Plus I was getting paid anyway, they were a nice bunch of guys and drunks were still singing and dancing to it.

If it had been my band, or I'd felt emotionally invested in the songs and the standard of the music, I'd have axed him. It just wasn't that situation.

I guess as a general point I've found that if people have the drive in them to develop and grow as musicians, they've already done it by the time I meet them. I'm all for seeing the potential in people but they've got to be already developing themselves in those directions by the time we start working together - if they haven't, then they don't want to and no amount of cajoling or tuition on my part will make them become better. That drive has to come from within them, and I think you can tell someone's true colours straight away if you're prepared to be honest with yourself.

FarleyUK

Cheers guys

Yeah, he's been playing for about 30 years, and has been in a few bands - makes me wonder if he's just not a particularly good drummer! Still not sure of the best approach though.

octatonic

It is a common problem and it definitely pisses me off when I'm a guitarist and playing with a drummer with one groove.

I learned to have a much greater appreciation for drummers when I started playing drums though.

It is a hard instrument to master, or even do well- there are so many things that are going on.

I'm playing 2-3 hours a day to try to make headway with it- it is working but it is a slow build- there is no hiding with drums, like there is with guitar so everything needs to be perfect.

The reality is that all the good drummers are busy and will often want to be paid for what they do.

If you're doing something that is original (and unpaid) or a low paid covers gig then you will generally have to take your pick from a list of drummers who are either new and inexperienced or older but untrained.

All the experienced and versatile ones will be busy, busy, busy.

The reason I started drumming is I know some killer guitarists scratching around for work but every good drummer I know is turning gigs down. Well, that and I love it.

The time to sort this out is before you take anyone on- I'd want to know what their musical habits are- are they currently listening to stuff, what are they transcribing or learning, do they play every day. If the answer is no then avoid because people who don't have a passion for the instrument won't be progressing or even maintaining their skill level.

I did a tour (as a guitarist) in Europe with a band that I recorded with in Switzerland- the guy on the album was Roman Roth (name drop: he's now in Simply Red), but the touring drummer was the singer's long time friend who had the problem you describe. Nice guy and a fun tour but musically it wasn't hanging there properly because of the drums, but I was getting paid so fuck it.

I agree- the drive has to come from within- but also the guys who have that drive are probably going to be either wanting to be paid or will be in 4 other bands as well so you will have to get in a dep when they are busy. That is just how it goes.

Teetonetal

Good drummers are gold dust, so many over play the fills, so many don't learn the actual beats...

steamabacus

FarleyUK said:

So, I created the current band about 2 and a half years ago

"Cursed, cursed creator! Why did I live?"




Well, what did you expect?

hotpickups

Its the first thing I listen for when auditioning for a drummer. I feel everything builds from that precise location. If the foundation ain't right everything will fall down eventually and that includes the band's moral. I knew a drummer who funnily enough was also an awesome friendly guy but whatever song I threw at him it was the same beat. (well he did say he was a punk drummer really) – he never got the position

At least he has a drum kit LOL (you'll need to read my thread last week)

CeeBee

Record it, put it up on Soundcloud and share it with the band. I did this after badgering our drummer for months about his tempo being too fast.

It wasn't until he heard it back he realised - he's much better now.

EricTheWeary

Our current drummer listens to the songs, tries to play like the recording, knows where the stops are. I don't think you realise how important these things are but when he was ill and we had a dep (who is closer to being a pro musician than the rest of us) he pretty much winged it. With Dave back it just elevates everything. We do a few songs by The Selecter and on Hootenany the big band drummer Gilson thingy did not get them right, our 60 year old carpenter bloody can. It's not about technique on this stuff so much of the time it's about listening to the bloody song.

FarleyUK

Yeah, agreed. Our drummer can't even get the fill/roll on Town Called Malice (coming out of the break back into the chorus) right, so he doesn't bother playing it.... which is something that stands out like a sore thumb as everyone listening is expecting that roll/fill.

ESBlonde

There are some parts I can't master to sing or in the case of 'Lady' which is a couple of sampled parts overlayed, I can't get the sound and the groove on the guitar. I can play something, but it's not right. So the song got dropped. Another song (I can't recall) the drummer can't get the groove for some reason, so again it's dropped and we move on. But if one person continually couldn't get it on multiple times, I suspect he's the wrong guy for the job.
You have to pick the material to suit the band within reason or change the band. You have a choice.

PolarityMan

Teetonetal said:

 so many over play the fills

So for me I dont mind really showy drummers doing fills all over the place, but only if, and this is a big if, the fills are sympathetic to what the other instruments are doing.

2 things in particular really piss me off, one is playing 8th triplets over sixteenths or vice versa and the other is where the articulation of the fill puts the accents in different places to an already strongly accented bass/rhythm guitar.

Mastadon is a great example of how a really really busy drummer can still sound great an compliment the music.

Like all things it's about the appropriate level of focus and inegration with the rest of the band.

ICBM

FarleyUK said:

So, I created the current band about 2 and a half years ago, and the current drummer has been with us for about 2 years now. He's a decent guy, very keen and likeable. We have done almost 100 gigs as a unit, but there's just one issue with him, and I don't think I can ignore it any longer....

The guy only has one 'beat' when he drums.

We're a covers band, so we try and get the songs as close to the original as we can; the guitars, vocals and bass all sound good, but the drummer appears to never learn any of the fills, rolls or stops properly. This has been going on for a while, but I think something needs to be done about it - we tried Back in Black the other day, and he completely shafted the drums - no groove, swagger or feel to it. It had been turned into something very different!

Now, I'm not sure how to approach it with him, as he and the bassist/singer are VERY close. The bassist/singer doesn't get involved in band stuff much (which we've all come to accept) and is very laid back so probably doesn't care about the drums.

However, from speaking to the rhythm guitarist, we both feel the same. We're tempted to not say anything until next rehearsal, and just stop every time the drums aren't right, so he has to make sure he goes and learns the correct beats, fills etc.

 Sure, I might sound like an a$$hole, but I just want the band to be moving up, not stuck at being as strong as the poor drums....!

Anyone else had to navigate a similar issue? Any advice?

Stop trying to play the songs like the records. Play them like yourselves, drummer and all. Stop thinking of him not playing the songs "properly" and start thinking of changing *your* parts to how you would play them if you had been given just the chord progression, vocal melody and basic structure.

Essentially play like an originals band which happens to only play songs someone else wrote. If that turns the songs into something different, that will make you far more interesting as a covers band. You can still be tight and professional, just more creative.

[/stuck record]

hywelg

No do not do that. ^

Play it like the band who recorded it or don't bother. We had a bass player who thought it was OK to change a song to make it 'ours' when what he really meant was he didn't have the time or inclination to study it and learn what was really needed from him. Laziness makes for a poor covers band.

There are a lot of performers locally who play acoustic and sing covers. They get well paid, play popular standards, but by god they bore the pants off me because they dumb everything down to the same level. Strum, sing . Thats it. No attempt at a different feel to the strumming, no fingerpicking, everything the same. Only pissed punters will like that sort of thing, people who go to watch a performance will give it a miss next time they come along.

FarleyUK

hywelg said:

No do not do that. ^

Play it like the band who recorded it or don't bother. We had a bass player who thought it was OK to change a song to make it 'ours' when what he really meant was he didn't have the time or inclination to study it and learn what was really needed from him. Laziness makes for a poor covers band.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. In my experience - as a player and a punter- the crowd want to hear songs they know; not a customised version of a song (generally). I mean, sure, we do our own versions of a couple of tunes (80's pop numbers rocked up), but I think every song in our own style would be potentially shooting ourselves in our collective foot, especially the venues we play.

hotpickups

FarleyUK said:

hywelg said:

No do not do that. ^

Play it like the band who recorded it or don't bother. We had a bass player who thought it was OK to change a song to make it 'ours' when what he really meant was he didn't have the time or inclination to study it and learn what was really needed from him. Laziness makes for a poor covers band.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. In my experience - as a player and a punter- the crowd want to hear songs they know; not a customised version of a song (generally). I mean, sure, we do our own versions of a couple of tunes (80's pop numbers rocked up), but I think every song in our own style would be potentially shooting ourselves in our collective foot, especially the venues we play.

To somewhat I agree with ICBM as we did this in my old band. However, we kept the iconic sounds which are recognised by the audience. We did change some the arrangements though or put in solos where there weren't any on the original recordings and just be generally creative but not straying too far from the recognised songs. My belief is the audience applauds the song not the band if it's a cover band

EricTheWeary

hotpickups said:

FarleyUK said:

hywelg said:

No do not do that. ^

Play it like the band who recorded it or don't bother. We had a bass player who thought it was OK to change a song to make it 'ours' when what he really meant was he didn't have the time or inclination to study it and learn what was really needed from him. Laziness makes for a poor covers band.

Yeah, I have to agree with this. In my experience - as a player and a punter- the crowd want to hear songs they know; not a customised version of a song (generally). I mean, sure, we do our own versions of a couple of tunes (80's pop numbers rocked up), but I think every song in our own style would be potentially shooting ourselves in our collective foot, especially the venues we play.

To somewhat I agree with ICBM as we did this in my old band. However, we kept the iconic sounds which are recognised by the audience. We did change some the arrangements though or put in solos where there weren't any on the original recordings and just be generally creative but not straying too far from the recognised songs. My belief is the audience applauds the song not the band if it's a cover band

Basically that but you need - ideally, I'm not making any claims here- to either follow the original thinking or apply an equal alternative. Same drum beat, same bass line, etc, for everything gets pretty dull. And if the gig is straight covers then that's the expectation. I get ' I'm not Neil Peart you can't expect me to play that' but replacing one 4:4 beat for another isn't asking that much. 

octatonic

Would you like to hazard a guess at what drummers think about guitarists?

ICBM

hywelg said:

No do not do that. ^

Play it like the band who recorded it or don't bother. We had a bass player who thought it was OK to change a song to make it 'ours' when what he really meant was he didn't have the time or inclination to study it and learn what was really needed from him. Laziness makes for a poor covers band.

There are a lot of performers locally who play acoustic and sing covers. They get well paid, play popular standards, but by god they bore the pants off me because they dumb everything down to the same level. Strum, sing . Thats it. No attempt at a different feel to the strumming, no fingerpicking, everything the same. Only pissed punters will like that sort of thing, people who go to watch a performance will give it a miss next time they come along.

Covers bands who try to play just like the record bore the pants off me, so it goes both ways…

I also tend to think that sort of nit-picking "correctness" only matters to other musos. Punters want to hear the song, not the record - and they're more likely to appreciate a good performance even if it isn't exactly like the original. If you want to hear the record put some money in the jukebox and be done with it .

It's not about being lazy, it's about being interesting. Playing all the songs the same is a different issue.

EricTheWeary

octatonic said:

Would you like to hazard a guess at what drummers think about guitarists?

As a species I'm sure we're worse but they can get their own bleedin' forum.... |)