Drummer issues....

robinbowes

octatonic said:

Would you like to hazard a guess at what drummers think about guitarists?

Drummers can *think*??

mixolyd

On the subject of playing correct parts: it pretty much comes down to detail and function rather than verisimilitude IMO. You can play the original little riffs perfectly or you can sub in your own well crafted alternative that perhaps works better within your practical situation. It's when you don't do either but just blag it that it lets the life out of the song. 

The audience remembers and cares how the details in the song *feel* more than exactly how they sound.  The successful busker plays to a crowds bodies rather than their minds.

Note: this question of *feel* answers the question of tone as well.  Punters don't care about tone consciously, but their bodies and feelings are every bit as turned on by a great sound as us musos are.

 As for drummers, I continually think I should learn. My talent on guitar has always been for feel and rhythm, I know how to practise effectively, and I know fine that most drummers I hear have tin ears. How hard can it be? There's no excuse for not being able to play ACDC properly btw: they use the same basic, beginners beat on almost every song.

FarleyUK

As an update to the situation; he double booked himself for the next gig we have.... so we're drafting in another drummer I play with who is very, very good. Will be interesting to see how the other guys in the band feel after the dep drummer plays for us!

I'm not on about getting the dep to do it full time, but I think they might realise it feels much, much better when the drummer plays the parts and helps to actually 'fill' the song, instead of just 4 to the floor on everything.

meltedbuzzbox

mixolyd said:

On the subject of playing correct parts: it pretty much comes down to detail and function rather than verisimilitude IMO. You can play the original little riffs perfectly or you can sub in your own well crafted alternative that perhaps works better within your practical situation. It's when you don't do either but just blag it that it lets the life out of the song. 

The audience remembers and cares how the details in the song *feel* more than exactly how they sound.  The successful busker plays to a crowds bodies rather than their minds.

Note: this question of *feel* answers the question of tone as well.  Punters don't care about tone consciously, but their bodies and feelings are every bit as turned on by a great sound as us musos are.

 As for drummers, I continually think I should learn. My talent on guitar has always been for feel and rhythm, I know how to practise effectively, and I know fine that most drummers I hear have tin ears. How hard can it be? There's no excuse for not being able to play ACDC properly btw: they use the same basic, beginners beat on almost every song.

kudos on the use of verisimilitude ;-)

SCMIV

ICBM said:

FarleyUK said:

ICBM said:

At the end of the day if you insist on having it like the record and the drummer can't or won't play like that, then you need a new drummer.

That's just it though - we are NOT doing every song 'exactly' like the record. However, even if we were, my point still stands - the drummer only has one 'style' and beat.

When I say that I believe he should play his parts as per the record, I am referencing to the key areas of a song that provide it's signature; for example, the drum roll part in the break of Town Called Malice. Punters EXPECT to hear that part, regardless of who's 'style' it is.

I honestly doubt it. The 'signature' of a song is in the lyrics, the vocal melody, the rough chord progression and sometimes a bit of guitar or bass if there's a distinctive riff.

I've never in my life heard a punter say "that band was crap, their drummer didn't play the xxxxx part in xxxxx just like the record". I have heard punters say the band is boring, or don't have any style of their own.

It's a muso thing to need to "nail" parts in my opinion. No-one else cares or even notices as long as they recognise the song and the band gives it some energy and doesn't make obvious mistakes.

FarleyUK said:

Can you imagine a guitarist not playing the riff properly in Sweet Child O'Mine? Same principle. People KNOW that part, and it's a key signature mark of that song, so it needs to stay - even if you DO play it in your own way.

Possibly, but close enough is fine as long as it sounds together and not fumbled. Not playing such an overplayed song in anything like the style of the original is better still though .

But if the drummer only has one style and beat you either need to work to that and choose material that you can play in a style which suits him, or get another drummer.

For my tuppence, ^ this completely.  The discretion and judgement of what players take from the original and what they don't is what makes doing covers interesting, imho. And yes, the signature of the song is never normally to do with guitarists or drummers (even if we think it is :-) ), there's always moveable and fixed parts, some are more important than others though - a bassist not doing John Entwhistle's lines in 'Can't Explain' will be noticed in a way that not doing precise guitar solos or drum breaks won't be. Haven't played doing covers for years, but used to do a version of 'Peace Frog' where the only guitar part that I did that was the same as the record was the solo.

But yeah, tailoring your set to play to everyone's strengths, and then throwing in curveballs that might help players break out of old, learned patterns is a good strategy.

Roland

For cover bands the theme of replicate or rework doesn't have a single answer. It depends on the song, band capabilities, whether it's a tribute or cover etc.

Some songs don't work if they aren't played very close to the original. Remember Brian May fumbling the solo to Alright Now? In some the arrangement is an integral part of the song. Abba anyone? At the other extreme there are songs which have been covered many times in different styles. Covers are really fun to strip back to the essentials, it may be a a key part like a drum roll or simply the feel of the song, and then rebuild in your own style. I really enjoy watching bands playing live, and effectively covering their own songs. Think about it, nowadays Jagger and Richards are in a Rolling Stones cover band.

Last night we weren't playing, so I went to see a band in a local pub. Technically they weren't adventurous. A lot of the guitar parts were reduced to two chords with the occasional pentatonics fill. The drummer kept a solid rhythm, didn't play the original patterns, but had two very tightly tuned drums which he used for man of the fills. It was novel and interesting. The singer worked the audience well. Sometimes I struggled to recognise elements of the original recording, but as a pub filler they worked well.

Getting back on topic. I'd try "This isn't quite working, could you listen to the original again and we'll have another go next week".