Breivik has won a case against Norway.

Deijavoo

Hhhmmmm...... If the Norwegians are so good at rehabilitation then surely their methods should be applauded rather than fined?

skankdelvar

While the average Norwegian in the street may perhaps espouse emollient idealism there's clearly some way to go with that 'rehabilitation' thing.

For it is suggested that Mr Breivik's extended stay in isolation is because the other inmates have had a whip-round, the gala prize going to whomsoever first shivs him to death. More fuzzy-huggy counselling sessions needed, it would seem.

UnclePsychosis

skankdelvar said:

More fuzzy-huggy counselling sessions needed, it would seem.

The Norwegians have a criminal justice system that is demonstrably miles ahead of most of the planet. Not sure why that's worthy of mockery to be honest. 

Bucket

chillidoggy said:

Brevik is a total arsehole.

You think?

Heartfeltdawn

skankdelvar said:

While the average Norwegian in the street may perhaps espouse emollient idealism there's clearly some way to go with that 'rehabilitation' thing.

Then try it from a non-average Norwegian. Bjorn Ihler survived Brevik's armed assault. He doesn't deny problems with some more extreme ideologies and the rehabilitation process. Much to digest in his words. 

http://pemptousia.com/2014/11/bjorn-ihler-interview-with-the-survivor-of-the-utoya-island-attack-in-norway/

skankdelvar

I do not doubt that Norway may be remarkably successful in the field of criminal rehabilitation. I just find it howlingly amusing that - for all their much-vaunted success - they can't let Breivik out of his cell for fear another inmate will kill him where he stands.

Life's a funny thing, eh?

chillidoggy

Bucket said:

chillidoggy said:

Brevik is a total arsehole.

You think?

Which bit of 'Brevik is a total arsehole' did you not understand? 

Emp_Fab

It is completely irrelevant what the prisoner's crimes were.  There should be no 'extra' punishment meted out by prison officers beyond what the court decreed.  To do so is to give in to the desire for retribution and revenge - both of which, whilst probably very satisfying on a personal level for the screws, are counterproductive for the society that has to deal with the prisoners when (if) they are eventually released.  Indefinite incarceration is not an excuse to deviate from this, neither is the nature of the crime(s).

You have to have a justice system that is beyond reproach.  The court decides the punishment, the prison and it's officers implement that decision - not add bits of their own based on nothing more than revenge.  If you go down that route, the whole thing becomes a joke and you end up with a third-world system of beatings, corruption and guaranteed recidivism.

p90fool

chillidoggy said:

What a joke. Brevik is a total arsehole. They should have just shot the cunt, and had done with it.

It's our Sun reader-like thirst for revenge in this country which makes our criminal justice system relatively ineffective.

"Do we have to do what the public wants, or shall we do what actually works?" is a sentiment you'll often hear in our legal system.

chillidoggy

p90fool said:

chillidoggy said:

What a joke. Brevik is a total arsehole. They should have just shot the cunt, and had done with it.

It's our Sun reader-like thirst for revenge in this country which makes our criminal justice system relatively ineffective.

"Do we have to do what the public wants, or shall we do what actually works?" is a sentiment you'll often hear in our legal system.

I don't read the Sun.

If he'd killed my wife or son, trust me, I'd be the first in the queue to pull the trigger, and fuck all the 'what actually works' bullshit. But then that's just me.

Richardj

This is a no win scenario. The Norwegian system should be applauded on the basis of it's results, but is Brevik so extreme that he cannot be rehabilitated? Does he actually see that he is being punished or is he feeding from the media attention reinforcing his belief that what he did was justified and in his own head (and the many who sympathise with him) 'right'?

Will the Norwegians see at some point in the future that he may never be rehabilitated and change how he is treated. Come what may he is now a martyr for his cause and will become a rallying point for those that think like him.

p90fool

chillidoggy said:

If he'd killed my wife or son, trust me, I'd be the first in the queue to pull the trigger

But he didn't, did he?
The whole workplace canteen-style "burn the paedo's parents' house down, castrate the rapist, hang the murderer" pitchfork mentality is just sad people WANTING to be angry about something which actually has fuck all to do with them.

I've just listened to an incredibly rational survivor of Breivik's attack on Radio 4, advocating fairness and sense to all prisoners.

Years ago one of the prime movers in the Northern Ireland peace process was a university lecturer who'd lost his beautiful, gifted young daughter to an IRA bomb. He was an inspiration, and a million times more effective than any bunch of ranting vigilantes.

ICBM

Emp_Fab said:

You have to have a justice system that is beyond reproach.  The court decides the punishment, the prison and it's officers implement that decision - not add bits of their own based on nothing more than revenge.  If you go down that route, the whole thing becomes a joke and you end up with an American system of beatings, corruption and guaranteed recidivism.

Fixed that for you.

chillidoggy said:

If he'd killed my wife or son, trust me, I'd be the first in the queue to pull the trigger, and fuck all the 'what actually works' bullshit. But then that's just me.

That's many of us, and is exactly why justice must be impartial and administered by the state and not the individual.

lloyd

I'm a hypocrite in these situations and don't mind admitting it.

I'm against the death penalty as I don't think it can be justified on the basis that we do get it wrong occasionally and one innocent man sent to the gallows is too many.

However, if somebody killed or raped a family member or friend (or me) I'd want the fuckers killed after a suitable stretch in a cell-say 20 years or so.

Open and shut cases-like these ones-the guy IMO just needs to be killed and have done with it-there's no rehabilitating people like him.

I like the Norwegian system of punishing offenders though, we should be focussing on how to get people to not re-offend, rather than baying for blood and punishments (although there should be a punitive response to crime).

Rapists, peado's and murderers that are mentally stable (as much as they can be), over 21 should get a life (meaning life) sentence.

Heartfeltdawn

skankdelvar said:

I do not doubt that Norway may be remarkably successful in the field of criminal rehabilitation. I just find it howlingly amusing that - for all their much-vaunted success - they can't let Breivik out of his cell for fear another inmate will kill him where he stands.

Their penal system has a lot of success of the rehabilitation front. Breivik is one hell of a special case. His act make the like of Thomas Hamilton, Michael Ryan, Hindley and Brady etc look like amateurs.  

Heartfeltdawn

lloyd said:

I'm a hypocrite in these situations and don't mind admitting it.

I'm against the death penalty as I don't think it can be justified on the basis that we do get it wrong occasionally and one innocent man sent to the gallows is too many.

However, if somebody killed or raped a family member or friend (or me) I'd want the fuckers killed after a suitable stretch in a cell-say 20 years or so.

I'm not against the death penalty but it should only be used in exceptionally rare cases that are completely watertight. There are some criminals beyond rehabilitation and the money would be far better spent on rehabilitation for the victims of crime rather than incarceration. 

lloyd

Heartfeltdawn said:

lloyd said:

I'm a hypocrite in these situations and don't mind admitting it.

I'm against the death penalty as I don't think it can be justified on the basis that we do get it wrong occasionally and one innocent man sent to the gallows is too many.

However, if somebody killed or raped a family member or friend (or me) I'd want the fuckers killed after a suitable stretch in a cell-say 20 years or so.

I'm not against the death penalty but it should only be used in exceptionally rare cases that are completely watertight. There are some criminals beyond rehabilitation and the money would be far better spent on rehabilitation for the victims of crime rather than incarceration. 

I think this is kind of what I'm saying, I should have added that I can't be against the death penalty for others if I'm for it for those that harmed people I know.

Like you say, they'd be exceptionally rare cases-like this one.

chillidoggy

p90fool said:

chillidoggy said:

If he'd killed my wife or son, trust me, I'd be the first in the queue to pull the trigger

But he didn't, did he?
The whole workplace canteen-style "burn the paedo's parents' house down, castrate the rapist, hang the murderer" pitchfork mentality is just sad people WANTING to be angry about something which actually has fuck all to do with them.

I've just listened to an incredibly rational survivor of Breivik's attack on Radio 4, advocating fairness and sense to all prisoners.

Years ago one of the prime movers in the Northern Ireland peace process was a university lecturer who'd lost his beautiful, gifted young daughter to an IRA bomb. He was an inspiration, and a million times more effective than any bunch of ranting vigilantes.

Maybe some people have the ability to remain calm when they've had some complete arsehole blow their loved one away. I'm saying I wouldn't have the capacity to be able to do that. If Breivik had killed my wife, he would effectively have taken my life away. So if I thought I could pull that trigger and blow the twat to hell, I would do so without hesitation, and without thought to any future consequences.

But like I said, that's just me, others will have different views and opinions.

lloyd

chillidoggy said:

p90fool said:

chillidoggy said:

If he'd killed my wife or son, trust me, I'd be the first in the queue to pull the trigger

But he didn't, did he?
The whole workplace canteen-style "burn the paedo's parents' house down, castrate the rapist, hang the murderer" pitchfork mentality is just sad people WANTING to be angry about something which actually has fuck all to do with them.

I've just listened to an incredibly rational survivor of Breivik's attack on Radio 4, advocating fairness and sense to all prisoners.

Years ago one of the prime movers in the Northern Ireland peace process was a university lecturer who'd lost his beautiful, gifted young daughter to an IRA bomb. He was an inspiration, and a million times more effective than any bunch of ranting vigilantes.

Maybe some people have the ability to remain calm when they've had some complete arsehole blow their loved one away. I'm saying I wouldn't have the capacity to be able to do that. If Breivik had killed my wife, he would effectively have taken my life away. So if I thought I could pull that trigger and blow the twat to hell, I would do so without hesitation, and without thought to any future consequences.

But like I said, that's just me, others will have different views and opinions.

My thinking on it is if it's good enough a punishment for someone that killed your loved ones then surely it is good enough for someone that kills another persons loved ones?

I always wonder how judges that pass down lenient (as in not the highest tariff) sentences to rapists would pass judgement on the same person and case was it their child that had been raped....I think they'd give the maximum, they should judge as if the victim was a family member IMO.

fretmeister

chillidoggy said:

p90fool said:

chillidoggy said:

If he'd killed my wife or son, trust me, I'd be the first in the queue to pull the trigger

But he didn't, did he?
The whole workplace canteen-style "burn the paedo's parents' house down, castrate the rapist, hang the murderer" pitchfork mentality is just sad people WANTING to be angry about something which actually has fuck all to do with them.

I've just listened to an incredibly rational survivor of Breivik's attack on Radio 4, advocating fairness and sense to all prisoners.

Years ago one of the prime movers in the Northern Ireland peace process was a university lecturer who'd lost his beautiful, gifted young daughter to an IRA bomb. He was an inspiration, and a million times more effective than any bunch of ranting vigilantes.

Maybe some people have the ability to remain calm when they've had some complete arsehole blow their loved one away. I'm saying I wouldn't have the capacity to be able to do that. If Breivik had killed my wife, he would effectively have taken my life away. So if I thought I could pull that trigger and blow the twat to hell, I would do so without hesitation, and without thought to any future consequences.

But like I said, that's just me, others will have different views and opinions.

The irony being that due to the revenge / vigilate element you would get a longer sentence.

Then when you get out his family can kill you. Then your family can kill one of theirs. Then his family....

You have perfectly illustrated why victims should have no say in the administration of justice in a case they were involved in.

Even the current trend for "victim statements" was caving into public pressure rather than any actual value in the process.