Breivik has won a case against Norway.

lloyd

Myranda said:

lloyd said:

PolarityMan said:

I'm definitely not in the kill them and be done with camp, and I'm all for treating him humanely but psychiatric care is expensive, ongoing and has a poor testability for success, unlike a physical injury. So in a world of finite resources I wonder if these might be better spent on prisoners who actually stand a chance at rejoining the general public. 

It is a fair point about making him easier to deal with though. 

I take your points, I'm not even sure where I stand on the whole thing.

Part of me says put a bullet in people like these-rapists, child killers, peado's etc

Part of me says lock them up in a cell for the rest of their lives.

Part of me says give them psychiatric help.

I don't know the answer and wouldn't want to be in a position to make the call either.

I think that as a humane society everybody, whether they're locked up or not for whatever reason should get the same medical care, extending to psychiatric conditions, regardless of the cost. 

If an independent psychiatrist thinks someone needs it, then they should get it, I suppose that is the benchmark. I think otherwise it becomes a cruel and unusual punishment akin to torture-some would say that he's deserving of that.

There's a reason we don't put some of these in prison for ever, let alone kill them... If they know that they will go to prison forever or die they might as well kill any witnesses (i.e. the victims)... thus increasing the risk. 

It's part of the reason yes.

I'm conflicted/hypocritical with death penalties, as the stats show they don't deter, can make the crimes worse as you say and because we shouldn't really be killing criminals in this day and age.

But ask me what should happen to someone who raped my Mum, my Brother or my Niece? I'd want them dead after a suitable amount of time in a cell.

Myranda

lloyd said: Myranda said: lloyd said: PolarityMan said: I'm definitely not in the kill them and be done with camp, and I'm all for treating him humanely but psychiatric care is expensive, ongoing and has a poor testability for success, unlike a physical injury. So in a world of finite resources I wonder if these might be better spent on prisoners who actually stand a chance at rejoining the general public. 
It is a fair point about making him easier to deal with though.  I take your points, I'm not even sure where I stand on the whole thing.
Part of me says put a bullet in people like these-rapists, child killers, peado's etc
Part of me says lock them up in a cell for the rest of their lives.
Part of me says give them psychiatric help.
I don't know the answer and wouldn't want to be in a position to make the call either.
I think that as a humane society everybody, whether they're locked up or not for whatever reason should get the same medical care, extending to psychiatric conditions, regardless of the cost. 
If an independent psychiatrist thinks someone needs it, then they should get it, I suppose that is the benchmark. I think otherwise it becomes a cruel and unusual punishment akin to torture-some would say that he's deserving of that. There's a reason we don't put some of these in prison for ever, let alone kill them... If they know that they will go to prison forever or die they might as well kill any witnesses (i.e. the victims)... thus increasing the risk.  It's part of the reason yes.
I'm conflicted/hypocritical with death penalties, as the stats show they don't deter, can make the crimes worse as you say and because we shouldn't really be killing criminals in this day and age.
But ask me what should happen to someone who raped my Mum, my Brother or my Niece? I'd want them dead after a suitable amount of time in a cell.

Good news! Everyone will die. So the imaginary baddie in your hypothetical situation will die.

lloyd

Myranda said:

lloyd said:

Myranda said:

lloyd said:

PolarityMan said:

I'm definitely not in the kill them and be done with camp, and I'm all for treating him humanely but psychiatric care is expensive, ongoing and has a poor testability for success, unlike a physical injury. So in a world of finite resources I wonder if these might be better spent on prisoners who actually stand a chance at rejoining the general public. 

It is a fair point about making him easier to deal with though. 

I take your points, I'm not even sure where I stand on the whole thing.

Part of me says put a bullet in people like these-rapists, child killers, peado's etc

Part of me says lock them up in a cell for the rest of their lives.

Part of me says give them psychiatric help.

I don't know the answer and wouldn't want to be in a position to make the call either.

I think that as a humane society everybody, whether they're locked up or not for whatever reason should get the same medical care, extending to psychiatric conditions, regardless of the cost. 

If an independent psychiatrist thinks someone needs it, then they should get it, I suppose that is the benchmark. I think otherwise it becomes a cruel and unusual punishment akin to torture-some would say that he's deserving of that.

There's a reason we don't put some of these in prison for ever, let alone kill them... If they know that they will go to prison forever or die they might as well kill any witnesses (i.e. the victims)... thus increasing the risk. 

It's part of the reason yes.

I'm conflicted/hypocritical with death penalties, as the stats show they don't deter, can make the crimes worse as you say and because we shouldn't really be killing criminals in this day and age.

But ask me what should happen to someone who raped my Mum, my Brother or my Niece? I'd want them dead after a suitable amount of time in a cell.

Good news! Everyone will die. So the imaginary baddie in your hypothetical situation will die. Yeah but I want them dead sooner because of their actions.

The reason for the hypothetical imaginary situation as you call it is to try to understand the feelings of those affected by the crime-which are very unimaginary and not hypothetical crimes that happen everyday, and then give an answer to how I'd want those criminals dealt with (I should have included myself in the list of victims too).

I'm not sure whether taking a completely neutral and detached stance on the crime or looking at it from the view point of the victims is the best way to enact a punishment for it.

We suppose that a detached and neutral arbiter is the best judge but as it is now judges and law-makers have a neutral point of view and IMO custodial sentences for sexual assaults and rapes fall tragically short of fitting the crime, were the guidelines written by victims of child abuse I would expect that the woefully short and sometimes suspended sentences we see handed out would be a thing of the past.

Evilmags

Should he have further access to the justice system? Yes. Should he have anymore access to publicity? Probably not. 

Chalky

My mate looks after the Yorkshire Ripper and chums. When he let them have a party, the newspapers go mental. But these are living human beings - you cannot treat them like caged animals for every hour of every day of every week of every year...

Snap

Such a complex area.

If you treat humans like animals, they will eventually behave like animals. Also, it demeans the humanity of the people who are inflicting the sub human treatment, thus creating more damaged characters.

Same with the death penalty IMO: it is sponsored murder. Not just homicide, but murder. The person pushing the button or pulling the lever is a killer. Isn't it monstrous that a society can create that situation?

I think the best solution for the worst criminals, those that are not fit to, or incapable of living in wider society, is to remove them from socitey permanently. Lock them away, treat them with a degree of humanity, not cruelty. Keep them removed from the rest of us. Forever. That is their punishment and IMO again, the price we pay (financially) for that segregation is worth every penny.

We don't erode our own humanity by further killing, or cruelty. We exact justice and punishment by taking them out of society for good, and removing their liberty.

For me, that is sufficient and worth financing. Of course if the victim was one of my own, I'd be frothing and wanting to string them up. But ultimatley that probably would achieve little other than making a lot of mess and damaging me for life, I would imagine.

Easy to say of course.

Evilmags

Brevik is a fairly rare example and seems like a complete nut job, and should probably be treated such. It is simply human nature that other prisoners and prison officers will want to have a go at him and make him suffer. 

For the really worst criminals in society I´d just dump them somewhere like St Kilda, send a monthly food supplement, some basic supplies and let them live by the rules they have forced upon others. 

BigBearKris

Evilmags;1054590" said:

For the really worst criminals in society I´d just dump them somewhere like St Kilda, send a monthly food supplement, some basic supplies and let them live by the rules they have forced upon others. 

Crematoria.

I can see that happening.

Myranda

Evilmags said:

Brevik is a fairly rare example and seems like a complete nut job, and should probably be treated such. It is simply human nature that other prisoners and prison officers will want to have a go at him and make him suffer. 

For the really worst criminals in society I´d just dump them somewhere like St Kilda, send a monthly food supplement, some basic supplies and let them live by the rules they have forced upon others. 

What if they banded together and built a boat?

Sambostar

Drew_fx said:

I'd pump him full of LSD and make him face the pure horror of what he's gone through and what he's done.

That's your own misguiding reality showing it's true colours.  What if he feels no horror?  It'd be like eating candy floss at the dodgems and flirting with the fairground loosies.  Mmm.  mmmm  mmm.

Sambostar

Maybe he listened to Megadeth?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYw7G3FTNCQ

Evilmags

Myranda;1054803" said:

Evilmags said:

Brevik is a fairly rare example and seems like a complete nut job, and should probably be treated such. It is simply human nature that other prisoners and prison officers will want to have a go at him and make him suffer. 

For the really worst criminals in society I´d just dump them somewhere like St Kilda, send a monthly food supplement, some basic supplies and let them live by the rules they have forced upon others. 





What if they banded together and built a boat?

No trees on st Kilda. Used to be a colony of religious types their. Pretty fierce seas as well. One armed patrol boat and a well guarded medical station is a lot cheaper than a jail.

A feel genuinely sorry for the people who have to look after some of the nut jobs in prison. They are very scary places.