live performance with modern modellers... Helix, Axe FX, Kemper...

bloodandtears

.. have I missed any??

I'm sure they all sound fantastic these compared to my trusty Line 6 Pod v2 bean....

..but how do they stand up with regards patch change latency??

Am thinking of joining a two guitar duo again, where the other guitarist uses a Boss ME-8 or similar straight to the desk; no amp... so I am assessing my 21st century options..   so the requirements would be amp modelling with effects with low patch change latency, floorboard control... tuner, wah, delay spillover all nice to haves..

FarleyUK

Pretty certain Helix does everything you've listed there.... Especially now we have the use of snapshots!

Roland

The Axe FX has a short latency when changing patches. However it's irrelevant to playing live because IAs and Scenes give so many ways of changing settings without changing patch. When I originally got an Ultra, and before that with a GT-8, I used up to 15 patches for a gig. Nowadays I use 4, of which one is an acoustic simulation, and I could get it down to 2 if I tried.

The things you need to think about are sound quality, ease of configuration, and ease of use in a live situation (what Drew call "workflow").

Key differences for me are:

- Whether the Axe or the Kemper has a better amp simulation depends on who you talk to. Both are ahead of the Helix.

- The Axe has better effects than the other two, but most gigs don't need that level of sound quality.

- The Helix is easier to configure, and cheaper.

If I were making this decision now I would think about:

1. How much money I want to spend.

2. How much time I want to spend configuring it.

3. How much my sound will need effects.

My personal answers are:

1. I usually buy second hand, and there there are Axe FX Ultras and Standards, and older Kempers, for sale.

2. I'm happy to invest time improving my sound as my ears improve. At least it means I'm not constantly buying and trying pedals.

3. In a covers band I'm always playing with effects. We've just added Message In A Bottle to the set. Do I need chorus, flange, or both?

Cabicular

You can have so many options in one patch on the Helix (especially now) that you probably won't have to change patches

johnonguitar

Look I'll be honest I thought that Fractal and Kemper were ahead of the Helix modelling wise but as of today and updating to Firmware 2.0 (and using IR's) it's really a level playing field now so don't let that out you off any longer!

bloodandtears

So is latency an issue?

johnonguitar

bloodandtears;1142696" said:

So is latency an issue?

Well changing patch mid-song is a no.

But as was mentioned above, with the new "snapshot" feature you might as well be changing patches.

Cabicular

bloodandtears;1142696" said:

So is latency an issue?

I always end up in a bun fight with Digital Igloo about this. I think it is an issue and patch switching in the middle of a song is a No no for me. There is a perceptable drop out
Pragmatically I never have too. You have 11 switches and an expression pedals and as many FX as you can fit in the dsp (usually more than 10) so the need to switch was to avoid tapdancing
Now they have implemented scenes (very well thought out) it's even less of an issue
And now you can change the variax within a patch (which was my major reason to use multiple patches) it's even less of a less

Cabicular

And even though I have had my issues I have to say I'm very impressed at the depth and functionality introduced by this new update. It's a major re-jig to what was already a very good workflow but they haven't rushed it and really thought it through.

Si_

I've NEVER needed to switch presets mid song.. Even well before scenes were ever invented. I just treat mine like a pedal board and assign switches appropriately.

I sold my Helix way too quickly I think I had it 2 weeks before I moved it on, if they were cheaper I would have bought another but the AX8 price over here in Australia is so much better than the Helix it's no competition.

Reading the 2.0 firmware notes for the Helix some of the new changes sound excellent, equally Fractal have added some great new features to the latest AX8 firmware. I think that the modelling is now so close that the additional features are what are making people decide on a unit.

bloodandtears

What's the latency like on the axe fx and keeper? Again a no-no? Is it better to think in amp model and pedal on/off type mindset as opposed to jumping between a jcm 800 and jc120 etc?

johnonguitar

bloodandtears;1142798" said:

What's the latency like on the axe fx and keeper? Again a no-no? Is it better to think in amp model and pedal on/off type mindset as opposed to jumping between a jcm 800 and jc120 etc?

You can jump between amp models inside the one patch

Sporky

Cabicular said:

bloodandtears;1142696" said:

So is latency an issue?

I always end up in a bun fight with Digital Igloo about this. I think it is an issue and patch switching in the middle of a song is a No no for me. There is a perceptable drop out

I think it's probably possible to plan your changes around the drop-out (in the same way that there was a chap on HCFX who would switch his stompboxes on the beats coming up to a change), but I don't think it's how things should work.

Equally I can understand why there's a lag.

I've not used the others, but on the Helix I found that the assignable footswitches (and it's a doddle to do) meant that I could do enough in a single patch, and snapshots make it so you probably don't ever need two patches for one track. Particularly as the Helix lets you run so much in one patch, turning each bit on and off as you need. As I've posted before, my most-used patch has (I may forget the odd bit) two compressors, four dirt, two EQ, a noise gate, a wah, a stereo amp, three cabs, two phasers, two tremolos, a delay, a reverb, a looper, an octaver and still has slots and DSP spare.

John_A

The hang-up's on latency, as others have said shouldn't ne an issue.  A patch or scene or whatever you want to call it could be 2 amps, 2 cabs, 10 FX, why on earth would anyone need to replace that with a different 2 amps, 2 cabs, 10 FX mid-song?

bloodandtears

John_A said:

The hang-up's on latency, as others have said shouldn't ne an issue.  A patch or scene or whatever you want to call it could be 2 amps, 2 cabs, 10 FX, why on earth would anyone need to replace that with a different 2 amps, 2 cabs, 10 FX mid-song?

Its a genuine question for someone uninititated; bear in mind I'm coming the Pod world which was far more limiting, and patch changes were the norm...


So in summary then, is it fair to say they all suffer patch change latency, but a change in mindset given the features and capabilities of these machines allow work arounds for live.

So tuner? controllable wah? delay spill over??

Si_

Correct. 

johnonguitar

Snapshots allow for trails

The tuner has been given an update but I didn't have a problem with it before

The onboard expression pedal and wahs are decent. Although auto engage isn't available yet. Hoping for it soon, would save me a switch

bloodandtears

So do you all have the Helix then??

Sporky

I think Roland has the AxeFX, Si has the AX8, John_A is dithering over buying a Helix and the rest of us have a Helix.

bloodandtears

fair enough...

Would be interested to hear the opinions of the Kemper users

johnonguitar

Kemper users are a bit strange. Kinda quiet geeky build-a-time-machine-in-their-garden-shed types. They'll probably be scared off this thread by the alphaness of us Helix owners