Playing festivals - Soundcheck woes for a newbie.

bob21

@Danny1969 ;
It's money mate - if I put two engineers on the job it will cost far more than putting one engineer and having a crew guy come in for the in & out.. client's aren't interested in paying the extra for something they don't understand or see the benefit of..

Also - seriously, have you tried doing 32 channels of monitors on an iPad?! try grabbing the fader of the mic that's feeding back in a hurry..

On jobs that warrant it, we do a digital split with Yamaha CLs at FOH & Mons, with two engineers - but there is no way most of the community type festival gigs will pay for it.. Most of them are happy on spec with 24ch and a 4 way monitor mix!

Ché

Sounddude: "Guitar, please"
Me - Strums one minor 7th chord set clean.
Sounddude: That's great thanks, keys next.

Erm, nope.

Me - Turns on distortion wah and delay and wails some high notes.

Now you have the full spectrum and amplitude of my sound.

Many sound guys who are guitarists (or empathetic to a band) will most likely ask if you're using any other settings to cycle through them, most, as was the case at the festival I played, do not. I know they're on a tight schedule but if you're not happy with you're sound you won't play well, and if you don't enjoy playing why bother?

The amount of times I've switched to a lead tone only to be lost in the mix and have to faff around with levels mid song I'd rather know I'm good from the start. Plus it looks (and sounds) unprofessional (if that's important to you).

I've also learnt never to expect monitors, let alone a decent monitor mix, so I normally put my amp on a stand near me as a faux monitor just to hear what I'm playing.

maltingsaudio

With regards to monitor engineers and small festivals @bob21 is right on the money or lack of it, same goes for Ipad mixing which isn't as easy as @Danny1969 suggests when you have no idea what the band sounds like or wants.and put one into the hands of the bloke who just lifts the cabinets and he/she will probably spend most of the time playing angry birds, add that to drop outs crashes and battery going flat ( how many can last 12 hours without needing charging?) it just isn't as easy as you make out mate.

Festivals are great fun but as a band you are really on the edge unless you can afford to take your own engineers and kit even then with such tight change over times usually it does come down to we'll get a mix in the first song and call your monitors as you need them. 

The best advice for bands is know exactly what your doing and how your equipment works and that it will work when needed then smile sweetly, go with the flow and enjoy the experience. The other thing that really helps is be nice to the crew at all times and be prepared to compromise, they know what is achievable with the PA they supply which is not necessarily what you think you can expect unless of course you have paid for all the things you want.. 

slacker

bob21 said:

merlin said:"a bit of everything and just a little more of me" is the best solution. 

I spend quite a lot of time mixing monitors (i'm an engineer full time) - and I really wouldn't advise this.

If you ask me for 'a bit of everything mate' I will assume you have no idea what you're doing, and will give you the mix I think you want. Now, for most inexperienced bands, that actually turns out to be bang on - after all that's the whole point of me being the monitor engineer, I'm good at it!

Because the long and short is you don't want, or need everything... For instance, if you are stood 6' from the drums - you do not need drums. If the lead vocalist wedge is spittingly loud, and it's 3' from your wedge.. you probably don't need much of that. If your bass player has been stupid and brought an 8x10.. You probably aint going to need that. 
The more you have in your wedge, the worse it sounds, and the less loud important stuff will get. I actually get a lot of mileage from turning stuff down in people's mixes when they want the main instrument/voice turned up..
I know all this, and I know that anyone who has spent enough time on real stages with real monitors and engineers knows this.. So therefore, the assumption as earlier..

What is more helpful is to think about what you really need to hear.. If you take cues from the keyboard player - ask for lots of that. If the singer plays an acoustic but it's pretty much a fashion accessory - tell me you don't want it, it will make your mix better.. If you need to hear the other backing vocal because he's the middle part in the 3 part harmony you're singing in - tell me specifically, I can help! Give me some good clues to what you really need, and I can build you a good sounding mix.. Without all the junk that gums it up!

When I was a bass player and asked what monitor mix I wanted I told them I only wanted to hear bass drums and lead vocals. They would smile and put lead vocals in the wedges.

As a guitarist, if there's a keyboard player and or acoustic guitarist not using backline I'll have a bit of that but mainly lead vocals.

As stated you can hear bass, drums and electric guitar very well, perhaps too well.

thomasw88

1. learn the songs properly, get tight as a band.  
 2. one of the things used to do in an old band was for big gigs, we'd go through the set instrumentally with no vocals rehearsal before the gig..  Tightens you up massively as a unit.
 3.Walk around a bit if you need to hear something..

Danny1969

maltingsaudio said:

With regards to monitor engineers and small festivals @bob21 is right on the money or lack of it, same goes for Ipad mixing which isn't as easy as @Danny1969 suggests when you have no idea what the band sounds like or wants.and put one into the hands of the bloke who just lifts the cabinets and he/she will probably spend most of the time playing angry birds, add that to drop outs crashes and battery going flat ( how many can last 12 hours without needing charging?) it just isn't as easy as you make out mate.

Festivals are great fun but as a band you are really on the edge unless you can afford to take your own engineers and kit even then with such tight change over times usually it does come down to we'll get a mix in the first song and call your monitors as you need them. 

The best advice for bands is know exactly what your doing and how your equipment works and that it will work when needed then smile sweetly, go with the flow and enjoy the experience. The other thing that really helps is be nice to the crew at all times and be prepared to compromise, they know what is achievable with the PA they supply which is not necessarily what you think you can expect unless of course you have paid for all the things you want.. 

We normally use a QU24 for festivals as it's got 24 monos and 3 stereo's so effectively 30 channels. I don't really have a problem mixing the monitors from the iPad using the QU ap across all 30 channels. I jump onstage when the band changes over with my iPad and make sure their vocals in the monitor first and then what ever else they want. If you use the custom layer feature you can keep the most useful channels on the first screen to cut down swiping ..... I normally have the first 8 as vocals which is most critical and drums last

You don't need the battery to last 12 hours, we use power banks in pocket when needed so you can keep working while charging. We take 2 iPads anyway but it's generally one for FOH, one for monitors. I stay by the side of the stage during the first 5 numbers or so, if there is a problem then I'm there and able to change it. 

If there's a solitary guy running PA then fair enough, he's got enough to do FOH but it bugs me when I see 2 or 3 PA guys at FOH and no one mixing monitors 

Drew_TNBD

Contrary to some comments here, hardly anyone I know is using an iPad to do live sound with. It's still basically the cheapest digital desks you can get and a few bits of outboard if you're lucky.

The main reason I haven't enjoyed *any* of our festival appearances is because of the cabs on stage. They nearly always provide a full stack, so I end up plugging into the top cab and I end up stood in the beam of the cab for the entire slot, and it ruins my mood and my performance. After playing 4 or 5 of them and having the exact same experience each time, I would seriously consider using IEM's and a modeller for those kind of shows.

The drummer and bassist loved them though, so there is that.

maltingsaudio

Danny1969 said:

If there's a solitary guy running PA then fair enough, he's got enough to do FOH but it bugs me when I see 2 or 3 PA guys at FOH and no one mixing monitors 

I don't want to get into a big row about this or a pissing competition, but it does come down to budget. Whilst there may be two or three guys hanging round front of house with branded Tshirts on they may only be mates who's day job is cleaning toilets and can lift a cab but don't have a clue about mixing anything but beer and spirits. As I'm sure you know its hard enough to get a promoter to pay for a PA system let alone qualified  crew to run it. I take with me crew who I can afford to pay. If the budget is enough to pay a monitor engineer then I take one, if its not then Ill take someone strong who is happy to do the heavy work for what the promoter is prepared to pay. I would love to take my monitor engineer to every festival/gig but if I did the Building Society would be extremely pissed off.

As to running monitors off Ipads tablets etc yes you can do it, we do if push and budget comes to shove, however to do the job properly you need an experienced engineer on stage with virtually the same desk as front of house on analogue splits so there is no head amp sharing. Unfortunately this is rarely the case due to budget constrictions of smaller festivals.  

bob21

yep, what @maltingsaudio ; said!
as always, it comes down to money!
it seems very much that different geographical markets have very different expectations (and preparedness to pay!)

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

The main reason I haven't enjoyed *any* of our festival appearances is because of the cabs on stage. They nearly always provide a full stack, so I end up plugging into the top cab and I end up stood in the beam of the cab for the entire slot, and it ruins my mood and my performance. After playing 4 or 5 of them and having the exact same experience each time, I would seriously consider using IEM's and a modeller for those kind of shows.

I would seriously consider plugging in to the bottom cab.



I prefer the 'top cab' sound, but if you don't, then don't do it if you have the choice...

Jimbro66

I wonder whether some of the frustrations arise from the use of the word 'Festival', which has devalued over the years. At one time if a band told you they were playing a festival it was assumed they were talking about Reading, Donnington, Glastonbury, etc but now the term is used for just about any outdoor gig with more than two or three bands. So you get things like 'The Annual Slug & Lettuce Slug-fest' and 'Little Snoring Charity Fest'. Great because they give local and often young bands a chance to perform to a bit of a crowd but they are a million miles from the true major festivals. Most are run on a shoestring so the organisers hire a PA at minimum cost. It's something that bands really just have to accept and not get too precious or anxious about.

ICBM said:

......... Just go with the atmosphere and enjoy it, even if you think it sounds terrible. The punters probably won't notice.

At those lesser festivals, as with the majors, the crowd is just there to have a good time - hopefully in the sunshine - so following @ICBM's advice is the right approach. It might all sound crap on stage but usually the PA guy(s) can be trusted to get a decent FoH sound, which is what really matters.

Drew_TNBD

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

The main reason I haven't enjoyed *any* of our festival appearances is because of the cabs on stage. They nearly always provide a full stack, so I end up plugging into the top cab and I end up stood in the beam of the cab for the entire slot, and it ruins my mood and my performance. After playing 4 or 5 of them and having the exact same experience each time, I would seriously consider using IEM's and a modeller for those kind of shows.

I would seriously consider plugging in to the bottom cab.



I prefer the 'top cab' sound, but if you don't, then don't do it if you have the choice...

Cable wasn't long enough!

Dave_Vader

Jimbro66 said:

I wonder whether some of the frustrations arise from the use of the word 'Festival', which has devalued over the years. At one time if a band told you they were playing a festival it was assumed they were talking about Reading, Donnington, Glastonbury, etc but now the term is used for just about any outdoor gig with more than two or three bands. So you get things like 'The Annual Slug & Lettuce Slug-fest' and 'Little Snoring Charity Fest'. Great because they give local and often young bands a chance to perform to a bit of a crowd but they are a million miles from the true major festivals. Most are run on a shoestring so the organisers hire a PA at minimum cost. It's something that bands really just have to accept and not get too precious or anxious about.



This - very much this. All the decent festivals I've played have been crewed by competent guys who you don't even need to ask to change stuff much.
Whereas, conversely, all the village fetes that call themselves festivals now are crewed by a bloke from the pub who owns a desk and some big speakers. He is there to talk to girls, don't expect a lot of help.

horse

Jimbro66 said:

I wonder whether some of the frustrations arise from the use of the word 'Festival', which has devalued over the years. At one time if a band told you they were playing a festival it was assumed they were talking about Reading, Donnington, Glastonbury, etc but now the term is used for just about any outdoor gig with more than two or three bands. So you get things like 'The Annual Slug & Lettuce Slug-fest' and 'Little Snoring Charity Fest'. Great because they give local and often young bands a chance to perform to a bit of a crowd but they are a million miles from the true major festivals. Most are run on a shoestring so the organisers hire a PA at minimum cost. It's something that bands really just have to accept and not get too precious or anxious about.

ICBM said:

......... Just go with the atmosphere and enjoy it, even if you think it sounds terrible. The punters probably won't notice.

At those lesser festivals, as with the majors, the crowd is just there to have a good time - hopefully in the sunshine - so following @ICBM's advice is the right approach. It might all sound crap on stage but usually the PA guy(s) can be trusted to get a decent FoH sound, which is what really matters.

Yeah - there's a huge variety of events and experiences going under the term 'festival'. Even the same event 2 years running can be completely different - had one last year where there was genuinely NOBODY looking after the PA - a helpful chap from another band just filled the gap voluntarily - same event this year had much better PA inc decent monitoring and a reasonable sound guy, even if he did hang me out to dry with how loud he kept my mic on backing vocals....

I tend to think you just need to manage your own expectations and make the best of it you can when they're tricky ones.

PolarityMan

If the amps are pretty cooking then sometimes i like more of the other guitarist in the monitors than me, this lets me move around a little relative to my amp to balance the sound.

Am I weird in that respect?

EricTheWeary

I've read interviews with pros where they say they like about as much of their guitar in the monitor mix as the audience would hear. Seems about right to me; any more then it's hugely distracting. Hearing my own vocals too well is quite off putting as well, which may be a bit odd. 

PolarityMan said:

If the amps are pretty cooking then sometimes i like more of the other guitarist in the monitors than me, this lets me move around a little relative to my amp to balance the sound.

Am I weird in that respect?

ICBM

Drew_fx said:

ICBM said:

I would seriously consider plugging in to the bottom cab.

Cable wasn't long enough!

The difference between you and me is that after the first time that happened, I would have made a longer cable .

No wonder I never became a rock star...

[/geek]

Cirrus

And the difference between both of you and me is, I'd have taken a combo.

No wonder I never became a rock star and my back hurts.

digitalscream

Drew_fx said:

ICBM said:

Drew_fx said:

The main reason I haven't enjoyed *any* of our festival appearances is because of the cabs on stage. They nearly always provide a full stack, so I end up plugging into the top cab and I end up stood in the beam of the cab for the entire slot, and it ruins my mood and my performance. After playing 4 or 5 of them and having the exact same experience each time, I would seriously consider using IEM's and a modeller for those kind of shows.

I would seriously consider plugging in to the bottom cab.



I prefer the 'top cab' sound, but if you don't, then don't do it if you have the choice...

Cable wasn't long enough!

...so put your amp at the side of the stack. Lateral thinking, man...

(literally)

John_P

Or just lift the top cab down.    Probably an empty one just to look "cool" anyway.